Author Topic: Pylon Play  (Read 29361 times)

Offline jg-me

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2010, 06:48:05 AM »
Seems fairly simple. The pylon is in the end zone by definition. The ball became dead when it hit the pylon. The player was not OOB at the time the ball became dead. Cannot be anything other than a TD.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2010, 06:53:07 AM »
Seems fairly simple. The pylon is in the end zone by definition. The ball became dead when it hit the pylon. The player was not OOB at the time the ball became dead. Cannot be anything other than a TD.

Player running toward the corner.  He voluntarily leaps, the ball crosses the sideline at the 1 yard line.  While in the air, the player twists and hits the outside of the pylon with the ball, never bringing the ball back inside the sideline.

By your interpretation, it's a TD.  But how do you reconcile that with 4-2-4-e and play #11 from last year's NCAA Bulletin?

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2010, 07:10:43 AM »
By your interpretation, it's a TD.  But how do you reconcile that with 4-2-4-e and play #11 from last year's NCAA Bulletin?

Easy. It matters when and how the ball becomes dead. If it becomes dead by hitting the pylon, it is always dead in the end zone. If it becomes dead because the player is out of bounds, then you have to take into account forward progress.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2010, 07:18:23 AM »
If it becomes dead by hitting the pylon, it is always dead in the end zone.


So you are allowing a voluntarily airborne player the benefit of the goal line extended?

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2010, 07:36:06 AM »
So you are allowing a voluntarily airborne player the benefit of the goal line extended?

In this case yes, as rule 4-2-3-b governs: "A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line." We never "get" to the exception to the goal line extended ie. rule 4-2-4-e.


Offline jg-me

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2010, 07:44:44 AM »
AB,
  It's not a matter of any official giving the ball carrier the benefit of the goal line extended. The rules, in effect, do that in the situation we are discussing. Because the ball is dead when it touches the pylon, it really becomes immaterial where the runner is at that particular point in time as long as he is not OOB. The paradox is that while the the pylon is not physically in the end zone (it is OOB), by rule (2-31-3) it is considered to be in the end zone. This makes our decision making process much easier - there is no need to be concerned about which direction the ball is coming from when it touches any side of the pylon. If it touches the pylon it is dead, OOB and in the end zone. After that, ball status and possession issues will determine the result of the play.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2010, 07:47:28 AM »
So you are allowing a voluntarily airborne player the benefit of the goal line extended?

No we wouldn't be.  It doesn't extend "around the world" per John Madden.

Again- in the definition of End Zone, the "goal line pylons are in the end zone".  The ball becomes dead in player possession when it hits something that by definition is in the end zone.  Touchdown.

Has nothing to do with goal line extended.  The fact that they're out of bounds causes the confusion- but they're part of the end zone.  If the ball hits the pylon- touchdown.  If he breaks the plane beyond the pylon- no.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2010, 08:59:34 AM »
I guess this is my problem.  The definition of the end zone says the pylons are in the end zone, yet the diagram of a correctly placed pylon clearly shows it is NOT in the end zone, it's OOB.

So the end zone is that area bounded by the goal lines, the end line, the sidelines, plus a 4x4 square on each front corner of the end zone.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2010, 09:43:23 AM »
So the end zone is that area bounded by the goal lines, the end line, the sidelines, plus a 4x4 square on each front corner of the end zone.

YES!

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2010, 12:05:36 PM »
So what do we have if the airborne player, already clearly across the sideline with the ball outside the EZ, reaches out for the backside of the pylon but clearly misses touching it, as the ball passes completely above or even inside the pylon extended.

And additionally, the "any pylon touch is a TD" is against the specific rule which in simple terms says that a player can't avoid the defender by intentionally going airborne OB before the goal line and then reaching back into the EZ for a TD.

We have rules, an AR, and a NCAA memo item that all say that the player is OB in the field of play;  do we have a rule, an AR, or a NCAA memo that says otherwise?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 12:14:57 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Mike L

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2010, 12:21:21 PM »
4-2-3-b = A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

Does that not therefore state the plane of the goal has been penetrated? It's the only way the ball can be "behind" the goal line. And, if the ball has penetrated the plane, in player possession, what do you have?
If it's oob first, how could it be behind the goal line?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 12:25:32 PM by Mike L »

Offline Getting Fat

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2010, 12:49:50 PM »

Does the attached bring anything to light?  The one who sent it to me put this very simply:

If the ball hits the pylon before anything else hits OOB, touchdown.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline foureyedzebra

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2010, 01:10:22 PM »
Easy. It matters when and how the ball becomes dead. If it becomes dead by hitting the pylon, it is always dead in the end zone. If it becomes dead because the player is out of bounds, then you have to take into account forward progress.


Exacty! And 4-2-4-e says that the ball becomes dead when it crosses over the sideline, if the ball carrier dove or jumped toward it.

(See my previous post)

e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline
(A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

2-8-2
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement
by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the
position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p;
Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R.
8-2-1-I-IV) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).


How can this be interpreted any other way?




Quote from: Atlanta Blue
So you are allowing a voluntarily airborne player the benefit of the goal line extended?

Answer from Kalle

In this case yes, as rule 4-2-3-b governs: "A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line." We never "get" to the exception to the goal line extended ie. rule 4-2-4-e.

My response to Kalle:

We never got to a "live ball" touching the pylon as it became dead by rule when it crossed the sideline if the ball carrier dove toward the sideline. If he did not dive toward the sideline, even at an angle, the ball remains live and is a  ^good


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Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2010, 01:32:49 PM »
Exacty! And 4-2-4-e says that the ball becomes dead when it crosses over the sideline, if the ball carrier dove or jumped toward it.

(See my previous post)

e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline
(A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).

2-8-2
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement
by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the
position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p;
Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R.
8-2-1-I-IV) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).


How can this be interpreted any other way?

I don't read it that way.  Look at phrase you bolded.  "When it became dead by rule".  The definition isn't saying the ball becomes dead, only that is its position when it does become dead.  Rule 4 deals with when and how the ball becomes dead by rule but 4-2-4-e isn't saying that is where the ball becomes dead.

Grant - AR

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2010, 01:37:58 PM »
For you guys who say this is out of bounds, what would you have in this situation?  A player from each team dives out of bounds at the same time.  While they are in the air and both players are outside the sideline, the defensive player slaps the ball (there has been no other contact thus far) and hits it back into the field of play.  Was the ball already dead because the Team A player is "out of bounds" or is it a fumble?  

While this is not exactly the same thing, I think the same philosophy applies.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2010, 01:42:28 PM »
4-2-3-b = A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

Does that not therefore state the plane of the goal has been penetrated? It's the only way the ball can be "behind" the goal line. And, if the ball has penetrated the plane, in player possession, what do you have?
If it's oob first, how could it be behind the goal line?

No, it does not necessarily mean that at all.

Punt, bounding ball, crosses the sideline at the one, hits OOB 2 yards past the goal line.  The ball is "behind the goal line", but it did not penetrate the plane of the goal line (which is not extended).

The plane of the goal line is only extended for a player that is touching inbounds, or was knocked airborne.  It is not extended for a player that is voluntarily airborne.

There is a rules conflict here.  The definition of the end zone says the pylons are part of the end zone, although their positioning in the field diagrams shows that they are clearly OOB.  And then we have the NCCA ruling from last year:

11. Ball carrier A22 is running near the sideline in an attempt to score. At the B-1 he goes airborne by leaping  such that the ball passes across the goal line extended outside the pylon. A22 lands out of bounds beyond the goal line extended.

RULING: Not a touchdown. The goal line is not extended for an airborne player, i.e., one who leaves the ground voluntarily. The ball is out of bounds at the point where it crossed the sideline. (2-11-2, 4-2-4-e, AR 8-2-1-IV)


So clearly, if the ball passes OUTSIDE the pylon with a voluntarily airborne player, it is not a TD.

The question is only those 4" of the actual pylon.  The diagram shows it is OOB, and therefore not part of the plane of the end zone, but the actual definition of the end zone seems to "overrule" the diagram, and makes the goal line eight inches wider than the sideline (4" on each side).

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2010, 01:49:47 PM »
This has been a good discussion but I'm almost sorry I asked.     ;)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2010, 02:07:38 PM »
Since this is at least the 3rd or 4th time over the last few year's that this has been discussed, is it to much to ask for a simple AR that states that for ALL CASES those two 4x4 squares on either end of the goal line (the pylon & pylon extended upward) are considered in the EZ when the ball either crosses over them prior to actually touching something OB and becoming dead by rule, that we have a TD?

We have agreed multiple times that there is some conflicts in the current rule book, but there is very clear WRITTEN rule support to say that this would not be a TD.  If the Big 12 "Guidelines for Plays Involving the Pylon" is in fact what the rulemakers intend, can't we just have an AR that confirms the fact and be done with this recurring and circular discussion?

Even the Guideline document bullets become a bit circular when you read it in context with the rules.  For example:  "A ball that touches the pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line." Don't the actual rules say that when a player voluntarily goes airborne OB across a sideline, that when the ball becomes dead (when it touches the pylon for this example), the succeeding spot is back where it first crossed the sideline?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 02:17:51 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2010, 02:15:45 PM »
This has been a good discussion but I'm almost sorry I asked.     ;)

It's also an excellent educational discussion since it gets us to re-read the rulebook, get a better understanding between the somewhat subtle (and maybe even a bit conflicting) rules, and has us even digging back into the past NCAA memos which just helps us get better educated.  Additionally, it gets us to better focus on areas of the rules that we may think we know, but when explained from a fellow official's slightly different viewpoint and focus we may re-think our understanding.

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Offline foureyedzebra

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2010, 11:55:32 PM »
I don't read it that way.  Look at phrase you bolded.  "When it became dead by rule".  The definition isn't saying the ball becomes dead, only that is its position when it does become dead.  Rule 4 deals with when and how the ball becomes dead by rule but 4-2-4-e isn't saying that is where the ball becomes dead.


Welpe,

You are correct in stating that the ball does not become dead when it crosses the sideline, but the philosophy is the same as for a fumble from team A's end zone that rolls forward and OOB at the two yard line. The ball does not become dead until it rolls OOB at the two yard line, but by rule the end of the run was inside the endzone and therefore the result of the play is a safety.

In this situation, the end of the run is where the ball crossed over the sideline.

2-8-2
Forward Progress
ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement
by the ball carrier
or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the
position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p;
Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R.
8-2-1-I-IV) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).



See my other post here http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7196.0

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Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 10:59:59 PM »
Digging through the Classics forum, I read through this again just for fun.  What a difference a year makes.