Author Topic: Proper Penalty Signals  (Read 4749 times)

NAUmp

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Proper Penalty Signals
« on: October 12, 2010, 12:13:01 AM »
Had this tonight in JV game and wondered about signals.

A42 lines up as tight end, but is then covered up by WR on the line.  A42 goes down field and touches a pass intended for him but drops it.  We have the LJ drop a flag and report Ineligible Down Field, then he says "he touched the ball."  This would give us Illegal Touching.

What signals would you give on this?  I'll tell how we did it after some suggestions.

younggun

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 02:30:16 AM »
I would just give the illegal touching signal, and the LOD signal on this...

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 06:01:33 AM »
I would just give the illegal touching signal, and the LOD signal on this...

Forgive me - been ages since I did NHFS, but isn't this an ineligable receiver?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 06:12:14 AM »
Forgive me - been ages since I did NHFS, but isn't this an ineligable receiver?

He's ineligible in any level of ball.  But if attempts to catch the ball, it's also Illegal Touching.  Since the penalty for Illegal Touching is worse than that for Ineligible Downfield (it includes loss of down), ignore the Ineligible Downfield and enforce the Illegal Touching.

You could signal both penalties, say the first is declined, and then signal and enforce the second, but that's overkill.

Had he NOT tried to catch the ball (and touched it), it is still an Ineligible Downfield foul.

ppaltice

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 09:20:13 AM »
He tried to catch it.  He bobbled the ball and it went incomplete.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 11:40:07 AM »
Illegal touching and LOD signals are all that are necessary, assuming that B accepts.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 01:09:19 PM »
He's ineligible in any level of ball.  But if attempts to catch the ball, it's also Illegal Touching.  Since the penalty for Illegal Touching is worse than that for Ineligible Downfield (it includes loss of down), ignore the Ineligible Downfield and enforce the Illegal Touching.

Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder. I had something in my brain thinking OPI, but I realize it was the 15-yard penalty plus LOD that made the cross-connection.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 02:54:47 PM »
Ah, yes. Thanks for the reminder. I had something in my brain thinking OPI, but I realize it was the 15-yard penalty plus LOD that made the cross-connection.

Well not too long ago, an ineligible intentionally touching a forward pass was OPI.  This was changed to illegal touching a few years ago.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 05:30:52 PM »
Well not too long ago, an ineligible intentionally touching a forward pass was OPI.  This was changed to illegal touching a few years ago.
So, in essence, the same outcome via a different rule, yes?

I haven't cracked an NHFS rulebook since 2006, so that would explain my lack of knowledge on the rule change.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 07:11:20 PM »
So, in essence, the same outcome via a different rule, yes?


Illegal Touching is 5 yards and LOD.  OPI is 15 and LOD.

And the rule change was a little more complex than that.  In the "old days", if an ineligible receiver touched a pass (or it touched him) behind the LOS, it was Illegal Touching.  Past the LOS, it was OPI.

Now, it's Illegal Touching only if he tries to catch or bat a forward pass.  If it hits him without his trying to catch or bat it, it's nothing if it's in or behind the NZ, and Ineligible Downfield if it's beyond the NZ.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 09:00:45 PM »
Now, it's Illegal Touching only if he tries to catch or bat a forward pass.  If it hits him without his trying to catch or bat it, it's nothing if it's in or behind the NZ, and Ineligible Downfield if it's beyond the NZ.

Thanks for the info! Quite unlikely I will ever work an NHFS game again, but good to know.

Do you folks have an exemption for offensive line players that block a d-line player downfield? Canadian rules consider those players exempt from ineligible penalties (for the most part) IF and ONLY if they do not continue downfield after disengaging and/or remain engaged with the d-line player.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 11:17:14 PM »
Illegal Touching is 5 yards and LOD.  OPI is 15 and LOD.

And the rule change was a little more complex than that.  In the "old days", if an ineligible receiver touched a pass (or it touched him) behind the LOS, it was Illegal Touching.  Past the LOS, it was OPI.

Thanks.  I was going off of folk lore from the old timers as it has been only illegal touching as long as I've been officiating.   ;D

Offline VALJ

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2010, 04:23:32 PM »
Do you folks have an exemption for offensive line players that block a d-line player downfield? Canadian rules consider those players exempt from ineligible penalties (for the most part) IF and ONLY if they do not continue downfield after disengaging and/or remain engaged with the d-line player.

In NFHS, the neutral zone can be expanded by up to two yards at the snap, but never into the end zone.

NAUmp

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2010, 08:20:47 PM »
WH gave the ineligible down field signal, the declined signal then the illegal touching and LOD signals.  I was not sure about giving the IDF signal since to have the illegal touching down field, the only place touching could have happened on this play, there had to be an ineligible.  I agree with AB that the extra feels like over kill but would not argue strenuously that it was wrong.  I was just curious as to what others felt.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2010, 08:35:21 PM »
WH gave the ineligible down field signal, the declined signal then the illegal touching and LOD signals.  I was not sure about giving the IDF signal since to have the illegal touching down field, the only place touching could have happened on this play, there had to be an ineligible.  I agree with AB that the extra feels like over kill but would not argue strenuously that it was wrong.  I was just curious as to what others felt.

He wasn't wrong, technically, he was right.  I'm just not sure technically correct was really necessary.

Offline lawdog

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2010, 09:08:57 AM »
WH gave the ineligible down field signal, the declined signal then the illegal touching and LOD signals.  I was not sure about giving the IDF signal since to have the illegal touching down field, the only place touching could have happened on this play, there had to be an ineligible.  I agree with AB that the extra feels like over kill but would not argue strenuously that it was wrong.  I was just curious as to what others felt.

I didn't post this earlier, but he is right in what you have.  Kid certainly committed both and you are enforcing one.  I don't know of anything that would make this an either/or type of penalty as far as committing it, just enforcing it.  We normally don't skip signalling a penalty just because it won't be accepted...  Now I grant you most white hats will only signal one, but technically he's doing it right.

NAUmp

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2010, 12:23:31 AM »
Well, talk about deja vu all over again, Friday night we had this call.  I thought about it for about a half a second and only gave the illegal touching signal (and LOD, of course).  Stadium announcer had enough problem figuring out what the one was without throwing the other in.   ;D

ppaltice

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Re: Proper Penalty Signals
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 09:42:59 AM »
You gave the Illegal Touching signal and not the Illegal Batting signal, right?