Late entering player

[mishatx]

A 2/10 A45.  Team A breaks the huddle with 10 players, who assume position in the formation and become set.  A35, who did not participate in the previous play, realizes he should be lined up as a back on this play, and enters the field from the team area.  After he is inside the 9-yard marks, but while he his still running to his position, the ball is snapped. His movement is otherwise legal (not forward, no other players moving while he is running onto the field.)

Ruling?

[NTXRef]

Illegal shift.   He has to get set before legalling going into motion.

[JasonTX]

The umpire also needs to step up to prevent the ball from being snapped to allow team B a chance to sub.

[mishatx]

I agree, Jason, but if the defense matches up with the player, how long does the umpire wait over the ball?  Until the player becomes set? Additionally, sometimes the umpire won't see the sub in time to cover the ball. 

NTXRef, can you give me a rule reference for that? I feel that way, too, but I've been unable to find a rule to support it.  Does 7-1-4 apply in this case?

[JasonTX]

I agree, Jason, but if the defense matches up with the player, how long does the umpire wait over the ball?  Until the player becomes set? Additionally, sometimes the umpire won't see the sub in time to cover the ball. 

NTXRef, can you give me a rule reference for that? I feel that way, too, but I've been unable to find a rule to support it.  Does 7-1-4 apply in this case?

If the umpire can't get to the ball, the rules tell us to shut the play down and basically have a "do over".  When any official sees the offense sending in a sub in a situation where they are rushing and not giving team B a chance to sub, the officials need to be signaling with the arms out like a "T" and this is the signal for the Umpire to see from the Ref to get up on the ball.  There is no written rule on how long to hold the ball, but typically 3 secs. should be enough time to "match up".

[HAshleyTX]

There is no written rule on how long to hold the ball, but typically 3 secs. should be enough time to "match up".

Did you check with Lou Holtz on that?

[Kalle]

NTXRef, can you give me a rule reference for that? I feel that way, too, but I've been unable to find a rule to support it.  Does 7-1-4 apply in this case?

7-1-4 is unclear on this, at least to me, but I think the intent of the rules is that this action would be considered a shift, thus requiring A35 to stop for one second after establishing himself as a player.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Doesn't incoming A-35 become a player by definition as soon as he crosses the nines since he is the 11th team A participant legally on the field and there is no departing player?   Doesn't 7.1.4.a then require that all 11 team players be set for at least 1 second if team A is coming out of a huddle as described in the initial case play?

ARTICLE 4. a. If a snap is preceded by a huddle or shift, all players of the offensive team must come to an absolute stop and remain stationary in their positions, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms, for at least one full second before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-4-I) [S20].

Based on those references I'd agree with mishatx that we've got a live ball foul at the snap, Illegal Shift, 5 yards previous spot.

[Birddog]

I know this is not set in stone but this play is from Rom Gilbert, 2009 Quiz 5, Question 2 it is similar to what we are discussing here.

2. PLAY: First and 10 on B's 30. Team A, in a hurryup offense, is waiting for the ready for play. All Team A players have been set for one second when A33 goes in motion. A33 is moving to a wider flanker position near the hash mark as the ready for play is sounded followed immediately by the ball being snapped. A45 advances to B's 15 where he is downed.

2. RULING: A 1/10 B15. A33 was legally in motion at the snap. Since only A33 was moving when the ball was declared ready for play, Team A has no obligation to pause for one second before the snap. If A33 and a teammate were in motion at the ready for play, that would constitute a shift and all Team A players would have to be set for one second before the snap. The fact that A33 goes in motion before the ready for play has no bearing on the legality of the motion at the snap. NOTE: Last known interpretation.

[JasonTX]

I know this is not set in stone but this play is from Rom Gilbert, 2009 Quiz 5, Question 2 it is similar to what we are discussing here.

This one has all the players being set for 1 sec. before the snap.  In the original play here only 10 players paused for 1 sec.  As NVFOA stated, all players must pause for 1 sec.  I have an illegal shift.

[NTXRef]

I think these guys have nailed it with 7-1-4.   While it doesn't specifically address an incoming substitute, I believe you can include the substitute as coming out of a huddle as Ump as outlined; therefore, requiring the stop prior to any other singular motion.

[yteside]

If I understand this play correctly, 10 players broke a huddle, then got set in their formation (i.e. no one moving).  Then A35 enters from the sideline, gets between the numbers and remains in motion until the ball is snapped.

Fellas, this is a legal play.

If any of the original 10 were still moving when he entered the field, then yes, we have an illegal shift; however, a shift requires TWO players, not one.  Therefore, A35 is under no obligation to get set.

[JasonTX]

If I understand this play correctly, 10 players broke a huddle, then got set in their formation (i.e. no one moving).  Then A35 enters from the sideline, gets between the numbers and remains in motion until the ball is snapped.

Fellas, this is a legal play.

If any of the original 10 were still moving when he entered the field, then yes, we have an illegal shift; however, a shift requires TWO players, not one.  Therefore, A35 is under no obligation to get set.

I think the key here is in the definitions.  A35 is an incoming substitute per 2-27-9-a.  He has not yet became a player as per 2-27-9-b since he has not positioned himself in an offensive formation.  On top of that only players may be in motion. So perhaps the foul should be for illegal motion and not an illegal shift.

[NVFOA_Ump]

If I understand this play correctly, 10 players broke a huddle, then got set in their formation (i.e. no one moving).  Then A35 enters from the sideline, gets between the numbers and remains in motion until the ball is snapped.

Fellas, this is a legal play.

If any of the original 10 were still moving when he entered the field, then yes, we have an illegal shift; however, a shift requires TWO players, not one.  Therefore, A35 is under no obligation to get set.

As Jason notes A35 is an incoming substitute so by definition he can't be a player in motion until he first becomes a player.

Once he changes from being an incoming substitute to being a player, he has triggered rule 7.1.4.a which is very clear in that if team A preceded the snap with a huddle all players must come to a full stop for at least a second prior to the snap.  I'm sticking with the Illegal Shift as the correct call here.

[yteside]

..rule 7.1.4.a which is very clear in that if team A preceded the snap with a huddle all players must come to a full stop for at least a second prior to the snap. 

I'm pretty sure that is only for the players in that huddle.  A35 was not in the huddle.  When you move from your huddle to your position, this is a shift, by rule.  So, when those 10 players got set, that shift was over.  If A35 came onto the field after they were set, then this is a different action.

As far as the legal incoming substitute becoming a player, we have an 'or' statement in the rule.  He can become a player by communicating with a teammate (I think 'Hello' qualifies) or positioned in offensive formation (does this require him to be set?  Not sure.  Being in motion is part of a formation...just asking) or participates in the play (when the ball is snapped, he is participating..since motion, or shift for that matter, is not a foul without a snap, which comes first?  Participation or the foul?)

Just bringing up points, not sure where I stand on this one.  I'd rather call Ill. Sub. before shift though if a foul.  I'm just not sure.  Possibly nitpicking as well.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Try reading the rule this way, maybe it reads a bit clearer:

1.  If a snap is preceded by a huddle or shift,
2.  all players of the offensive team must come to an absolute stop
3.  and remain stationary in their positions, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms,
4.  for at least one full second
5   before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-4-I) [S20].

The clear mandate here is that if we have a snap preceded by a huddle, then all players must haves been stationary for at least one second before that snap.  Since the incoming substitute becomes a player at the snap who was not stationary prior to that snap I don't see how we cannot have a flag per 7.1.4.a?

[yteside]

Yes..the players in the huddle...because when they move, they create a shift.  And a shift is over, when all players that were moving, come to a set position for at least one second.

The language here creates a loophole because the rule does not specifically say the players in that particular huddle; so, this is the question to infer that those are the players this is referring too, or not.  I understand the argument being made.  Interesting omission though I had not thought of before.

Good catch.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Yes..the players in the huddle...because when they move, they create a shift.  And a shift is over, when all players that were moving, come to a set position for at least one second.

The language here creates a loophole because the rule does not specifically say the players in that particular huddle; so, this is the question to infer that those are the players this is referring too, or not.  I understand the argument being made.  Interesting omission though I had not thought of before.

Good catch.

Have all players been stationary for one second prior to the snap?  I've got one player who is still moving at the snap.  IMO there's no loophole there.

[yteside]

If....the players in the huddle.....stop and set for one second........THEN, after they have stopped....an 11th player enters from the sideline.....meaning that 'during' the 11th player's movement....no other team A player, that was in that huddle, was moving......then we, by rule, do not have a shift....because a shift....by rule.....requires TWO (not one) players to be moving.

A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive
players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage play and before the
next snap.

[KB]

The shift started when 10 players moved from the huddle (or from the end of the previous play) to their position in the formation for the next snap. After that, a substitute entered the field and became a player while moving. He then continued to move until the snap.
Therefore the offense has not fulfilled the requirement that all their players become stationary for a second. One of them never was, so we still have something like an ongoing shift that never was completed.
I'm going with illegal shift.

[Birddog]

Has anyone sent this to RR?  Would like to hear what he says on this.  In reality this is not a far fetched third world senario at all.  Probably happens every Friday night somewhere here in Texas.

[NVFOA_Ump]

There's another related but slightly different problem here.  When team A substitutes late, team B by rule has a right to respond (if they so wish) and we are not supposed to allow A to snap the ball for at least a few seconds after the A substitute enters the field to allow that B response.  IMO the original question becomes moot if we do that since there's no way A snaps with the substitute still in motion if we delay long enough for B to indicate if they are going to respond with a substitution of their own.

[JasonTX]

Let's look at this in a different play situation:

Team A groups 11 players together in a huddle.  The huddle breaks and all 10 players move into their positions.  A22, the running back is still moving around, confused where he is supposed to be lined up and never comes to a complete stop.  Meanwhile, all the other 10 players have come to a complete stop.  The ball is snapped while A22 is moving away from his own opponents goalline.  He is next to the QB in the backfield when the ball is snapped.

[NVFOA_Ump]

That's a by the book 7.1.4.a foul, although based on the level of play, the score of the game, and common sense we may let it go if it's clear that A is not getting any advantage in catching B confused with what's going on.  If he's already been in the huddle, broke the huddle, and is in the middle of the field in the vicinity of the A-QB, then there is not much chance that B doesn't see him and have someone assigned to cover him.

[pedja]

I've sent this play to RR and here is his answer:

RR: Assuming that A35 does not become the 5th player in the backfield, the play is legal.