Author Topic: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse  (Read 8985 times)

Offline foureyedzebra

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Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« on: October 13, 2010, 11:50:52 PM »
FR 8-2-1-a

SECTION 2. Touchdown
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. A touchdown shall be scored when:
a. A ball carrier advancing from the field of play has possession of
a live ball when it penetrates the plane of the opponentís goal line
(Exception: Rule 4-2-4-e) (A.R. 2-23-1-I and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IV).

FR 4-2-4-e

e. When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-III and IV).


FI (A.R.) 8-2-1-III

III. Ball carrier A1, advancing in the field of play, becomes airborne at
the two-yard line. His first contact with the ground is out of bounds
three yards beyond the goal line. The ball, in possession of the ball
carrier, passed over the pylon. RULING: Touchdown (Rule 4-2-
4-e). No mention of ball crossing sideline while ball carrier is airborne


FI (A.R.) 8-2-1-IV

IV. The ball, in possession of airborne ball carrier A21, crosses the
sideline above the one-yard line, penetrates the plane of the goal line
extended and is then declared dead out of bounds in possession of
A21. RULING: Ball is declared out of bounds at the one-yard line
(Rules 2-11-1 and 4-2-4-e).


Goal Lines
ARTICLE 2. The goal line at each end of the field of play runs between the
sidelines
and is part of the vertical plane that separates the end zone from
the field of play. This plane extends beyond the sidelines (Exception: Rule 4-2-4-e).
The two goal lines are 100 yards apart. The entire goal line is in the
end zone. A teamís goal line is that which it is defending (A.R. 2-11-2-I).

Since the goal line runs between the side lines, in the original post where it says that the ball touches the pylon on the outside edge it would have to have first penetrated the plane of the goal line extended as referenced in FI (A.R.) 8-2-1-IV


FR 1-2-6
Pylons
ARTICLE 6. Soft, flexible four-sided pylons 4 inches by 4 inches with an
overall height of 18 inches, which may include a 2-inch space between
the bottom of the pylon and the ground, are required. They shall be red or
orange in color and placed at the inside corners of the eight intersections
of the sidelines with the goal lines and end lines
. The pylons marking the
intersections of the end lines and inbounds lines extended shall be placed
three feet off the end lines.

Since the pylons mark the intersections of the goal line and side line and also the end line and sideline, and the goal lines run between the side lines it sounds to me like the pylons are out of bounds.


And just because I know someone is going to bring this up:

FR 2-31-3

End Zones
ARTICLE 3. The end zone at each end of the field is the rectangle defined
by the goal line, sidelines and end line. The goal line and goal line pylons
are in the end zone, and a teamís end zone is the one it is defending
(A.R. 8-5-1-X and A.R. 8-6-1-I).


So you can take this one rule that says the pylons are in the end zone and build a flimsy case for why you would award a touchdown, or you can take the two rules and two A.R.'s  which all specifically list an exception referencing FR 4-2-4-e plus the one other rule that I have listed and build a solid case for ruling the ball dead at the point at which it crossed the sideline.

You decide; but choose wisely.


If you don't bring your "A" game to every game, it won't be long until you don't have an "A" game.

Tommy Moore

Offline Kalle

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2010, 01:34:38 AM »
Well, feel free to ask Redding, but I still claim that this is not a question of forward progress but of a live ball in player possession becoming dead behind the goal line by touching the pylon. And as long as Rom agrees with me, I feel very secure :)

And yes, the goal plane does not extend above the pylons, only the actual pylons themselves.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2010, 07:57:53 AM »
You're not mentioning the fact that the ball is in the end zone in possession of a player prior to it becoming dead- which is exactly what happens when it touches the pylon.

You can ignore that little part of FR 2-31-3 if you'd like.

You decide.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 09:09:35 AM »
You're not mentioning the fact that the ball is in the end zone in possession of a player prior to it becoming dead- which is exactly what happens when it touches the pylon.

You can ignore that little part of FR 2-31-3 if you'd like.

You decide.

But to do so ignores 4-2-4-e if he was voluntarily airborne and the ball was already over the sideline.

And that's the point: there are two (or more) conflicting rules.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 12:17:24 PM »
But to do so ignores 4-2-4-e if he was voluntarily airborne and the ball was already over the sideline.


And that's the point.  The rule clearly says that if the ball carrier voluntarily goes airborne across the sideline, then the OB spot is where the ball crossed the sideline as soon as the ball or the runner touches something that is OB.  When the ball touches something OB (the pylon) it's OB.  IMO that's the end of the discussion since the spot has already been determined previously.
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Offline Diablo

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 02:06:24 PM »
To those who would rule that the play on the table is not a TD, how would you rule on the following?

Play 1  Team A punts.  The ball lands at the B-5 and bounces into the goalline pylon.

Play 2  Team A punts.  The ball lands at the B-5, bounces forward and crosses above the sideline at the B-2.  While still in flight, a strong gust of wind blows the ball into the goalline pylon.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 03:45:24 PM »
Both TB's since when the ball is both untouched in the field of play and has not touched anything OB the specific and unique rule wording in 4-2-4-e is not applicable.

I read 4-2-4-e exactly as it is written, IMO a single unique case with a single application - when a the ball carrier intentionally goes OB airborne the OB spot is without exception the OB crossing spot and when the ball, still in possession of the same player, subsequently touches anything OB it goes there.  The pylon is 100% OB therefore the ball becomes dead by rule at that previous OB crossing spot.

We can't yet rule it dead when he intentionally goes airborne OB since he could still fumble or throw a backward pass into the field of play.  If he gets it back into the field of play without violating the rules, then it stays live.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 09:33:08 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 06:55:12 PM »
I guess the 'no arguments' part of this thread died a quick death

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2010, 08:04:59 PM »
To those who would rule that the play on the table is not a TD, how would you rule on the following?

Play 1  Team A punts.  The ball lands at the B-5 and bounces into the goalline pylon.

Play 2  Team A punts.  The ball lands at the B-5, bounces forward and crosses above the sideline at the B-2.  While still in flight, a strong gust of wind blows the ball into the goalline pylon.

Both are touchbacks, as the rule is completely different for a ball in player possession and one that is not.

Your examples don't pertain to the issue because of that that difference.

Offline Welpe

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2010, 08:32:19 PM »
Both TB's since when the ball is both untouched in the field of play and has not touched anything OB the specific and unique rule wording in 4-2-4-e is not applicable.

What about 4-2-3-c ?

c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

Offline Diablo

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 10:23:49 PM »
Both are touchbacks, as the rule is completely different for a ball in player possession and one that is not.
Your examples don't pertain to the issue because of that that difference.


Welpe sees where I am going with this illustration.  The relevant rules are not different.

What about 4-2-3-c ?
c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

 I say 4-2-4-e is virtually identical to 4-2-3-c.  Specifically, a live ball crosses the sideline in both and the instructions for the outcome are the same for both.

4-2-4-e reads, "When a ball carrier dives or jumps toward the sideline and is airborne as
he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position
of the ball as it crosses the sideline
".
4-2-3-c reads, "If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point".

If you rule no TD in the play on the table, you have to rule no TB in Play 2 that I posed.
To be correct and consistent with the intent, we must rule TD in the original play and TB in my Play 2.


Offline chymechowder

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 11:20:35 PM »
And that's the point.  The rule clearly says that if the ball carrier voluntarily goes airborne across the sideline, then the OB spot is where the ball crossed the sideline as soon as the ball or the runner touches something that is OB.  When the ball touches something OB (the pylon) it's OB.  IMO that's the end of the discussion since the spot has already been determined previously.

In the play being discussed, doesn't the ball cross the sideline twice?  Once, in one direction, when the ballcarrier dives over the sideline at the 2 yardline. And then again when he reaches back towards the pylon?

I'm inclined to agree with the "live ball in possession touches a pylon = touchdown" philosophy. If for no other reason than it's easier to officiate. :)

But couldn't that be reconciled with the forward progress rule by viewing the reach back as a another sideline crossing?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 05:45:30 AM »

If you rule no TD in the play on the table, you have to rule no TB in Play 2 that I posed.
To be correct and consistent with the intent, we must rule TD in the original play and TB in my Play 2.


I read the "intent" to say that a player in possesion of the ball who has gone airborne and OB voluntarily has created his own rule exception that pretty clearly says that he loses the EZ extended privilege which includes the fact that the pylon is OB.

I don't see any equivalent language that says on a bouncing loose ball from a kick that if we judge the kick airborne OB outside the sideline and it somehow comes back far enough to touch the pylon that were making the same call.

I read a clear difference in that in one play a player intentionally carried the ball into the OB area, the other is simply a loose ball hostage to bounces, physics, and the wind.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 07:36:53 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Diablo

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 09:44:37 AM »
NVFOA Ump

For all practical purposes the plays are almost identical.  Both involve a ball which, crosses the sideline but, initially is not declared dead.  In both, the ball is subsequently declared dead via the same means - the ball touches the goalline pylon.  The only difference in the plays is that the ball is in player possession versus being loose from a kick.

In order to derive a ruling for these two plays we draw upon the relevant passages in the rule book - 4-2-3-c for the loose ball play and 4-2-4-e for the ball in player possession.

Lo & behold the wording the those two passages is virtually identical.  Both address a live ball crossing the sideline and both provide the same ruling - the crossing yardline is the succeeding spot.  However, both rulings are modified by the special quality of the goalline pylon.  That being, goalline pylons are simultaneously out of bounds and in the endzone.  Physically that is not possible, but it is conceptually.  And the rules have adopted that concept of dual location for the goalline pylon.  It is the application of that concept that allows 4-2-3-c to be morphed into ruling TB for my Play 2.  Given the virtually identical wording & intent between 4-2-3-c and 4-2-4-e, I conclude that the same concept of the pylons' dual location would also morph 4-2-4-e situations into a TD ruling for the original play. 

I don't see any evidence of an exception excluding 4-2-4-e from that application. 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 10:17:49 AM »
Well one thing that we certainly agree on is that the wording here should explicitly say that for determining the succeeding spot the pylon is considered OB (since it is physically entirely OB) or alternately were using the "it's in the EZ extended". 
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Mike L

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 10:28:37 AM »
So if the runner is Superman and upon his voluntary dive is able to extend the ball back "inbounds" multiple times during his flight, which spot of the ball being carried out do you use? ;D

I'm still sticking with Rom's ruling....ball touches pylon = TD. If I ever get to the point where a replay guy could over-rule me...well I'll let him have the superman eyes and make some call according to what side of the pylon it hit.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:33:53 AM by Mike L »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 07:13:35 PM »
Got to sit and talk with Ben Oldham today.  Ben was a 25 year SEC official (primarily in deep positions), and is now a replay official (as well as a very nice and very helpful man).  I asked him about this play:

A Player leaps for the corner, the ball crosses the sideline at the 1, but the player reaches back, and before touching anything else OOB, touches the pylon with the ball.

Ben's answer: touchdown.

I asked:  Does it matter which side of the pylon it touches?

Nope, if the ball touches the pylon, it's a TD.

I asked about the pylon actually being OOB, and 4-2-4-e.

"It's TD, the pylon is IN the end zone.  Unless the player is already OOB, and I mean has touched something OOB, any ball that is in player possession that touches the pylon is a touchdown."


So forget about any rule conflict (and I was certainly one that said there was one!) - it's a touchdown.

ABoselli

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2010, 08:41:44 AM »
I like this Ben.

Offline Curious

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Re: Pylon Play - No Arguments - Chapter and Verse
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2010, 11:19:35 AM »

"It's TD, the pylon is IN the end zone.  Unless the player is already OOB, and I mean has touched something OOB, any ball that is in player possession that touches the pylon is a touchdown."


So forget about any rule conflict (and I was certainly one that said there was one!) - it's a touchdown.

Ok AB, this is a conspiracy right - designed to make me crazy?  "when properly placed, pylons are behind the goal line and entirely out bounds"; BUT they're "in the end zone".  Reminds me of a recent, similar thread in the NFHS forum (I'm a HS official).  I feel like the Aflac duck after listening to Yogi Berra!!!!