Does this foul qualify for PSK?

[McRef77]

A 4/15/A20. Punter A-55 is standing on the A7. At the snap, he is under a heavy rush and the ball is partially blocked at the A8. The ball continues in awkward flight and strikes A-79 at the A18. A-55 runs forward and picks up the loose ball at the A19 and punts it again. B-14 makes a fair catch at the 50. During the first kick, defender B-97 held gunner A-41 at the A25.

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMO no.  If the holding as described took place after the 1st kick but prior to A recovering the loose ball for the subsequent 2nd kick that then crossed the NZ,  that's a previous spot foul.

[McRef77]

IMO no.  If the holding as described took place after the 1st kick but prior to A recovering the loose ball for the subsequent 2nd kick that then crossed the NZ,  that's a previous spot foul.

My question on this more or less pertains to "b." below which states the ball crosses the NZ.  When I first answered this, my answer was the same as yours.  However after I thought about it some more, it doesn't say the kick or related kick crosses the NZ so I think it qualifies since all items are satisfied by the play because regardless of how the ball crossed the NZ, it crossed it.  I thought this was a great question and would certainly like to see some more folks' opinions on this.

Postscrimmage Kick Enforcement
ARTICLE 3. During a scrimmage kick play, postscrimmage kick enforcement
applies only to fouls by Team B and only under the following conditions:
a. The kick is not during a try, a successful field goal, or in an extra
period.
b. The ball crosses the neutral zone.
c. The foul occurs three or more yards beyond the neutral zone.
d. The foul occurs before the end of the kick (A.R. 10-2-3-I, II and V).
e. Team A is not in legal possession of the ball when it is declared dead.
If these conditions are all met, the penalty is enforced according to the
Three-and-One Principle with the postscrimmage kick spot as the basic
spot.

[NVFOA_Ump]

But remember the differences between scrimmage kick play and the down.  On the 1st "scrimmage kick play" the ball remains loose and behind the NZ, that is when, if I'm reading the initial case play correctly, the foul occurs,  A then regains possession, and some time after gaining possession, a running play however brief occurs, then A kicks the ball a 2nd time where the ball then crosses on a true scrimmage kick play.

I'm inclined to say that the actual foul occurred during the down, but well before the actual scrimmage kick play where "the ball crosses the neutral zone", and we would therefore enforce as a previous spot foul.

[McRef77]

Okay, so although we only have one down, we have two scrimmage kick plays.  PSK states the ball must cross the NZ during a scrimmage kick play and the definition of a scrimmage kick play is the period between the snap and when the ball comes into player possession.  In this case it was possessed prior to crossing the NZ (which ended the first scrimmage kick play) and although it subsequently crossed the NZ, it was not during the scrimmage kick play when the defensive holding occurred.  Enforce 10 yards from the previous spot.  A 4/5 A30.  Clock would be on the snap following a legal kick down.

Sound right?

[Andrew McCarthy]

By rule, when does a scrimmage kick play begin?

[NVFOA_Ump]

By rule, when does a scrimmage kick play begin?

Which one of the scrimmage kick plays?

[Grant - AR]

Very interesting play and discussion here. 

Rule 2-30-3 - A scrimmage kick play is the interval between the snap and when a scrimmage kick comes into player possession or the ball is declared dead by rule.

Since the definition of a scrimmage kick play says it starts at the snap, can we have two scrimmage kick plays here...or only one?  We only have one snap so if we have two scrimmage kick plays, when do each of them begin?

[jg-me]

Regardless of how many scrimmage kicks occur during any one down, each and every one of those scrimmage kick plays began, by definition, with the same snap. Therefore, it is impossible to have more than one scrimmage kick play during any one down. When the last scrimmage kick comes into player possession or becomes dead by rule, everything between that point and the snap is one scrimmage kick play.

[NVFOA_Ump]

When the last scrimmage kick comes into player possession or becomes dead by rule, everything between that point and the snap is one scrimmage kick play.

By rule definitions we have 5 plays during this down (maybe 6 if we count the fair catch after the 2nd kick as a 0 yard running play):

1.  A backward pass play (the snap)
2.  A kick play (the 1st kick that was blocked)
3.  A loose ball play (the period between the block and A's re-possessing the ball)
4.  A running play (after team A re-possession and prior to the 2nd kick)
5.  A kick play (that finally crosses the NZ).

Are you really going to enforce a defensive holding play that occurred just 5 yards beyond the LOS between play 2 & 3 with a PSK enforcement?  The rule is written to eliminate the impossible task of having to determine exactly when and where on a kick play the foul occurred in relation to the kick crossing the NZ.  Don't you think that applying a PSK enforcement on a D-hold that occurred while or just after the 1st kick was being blocked is oversimplifying our decision a bit too much?

[chymechowder]

By rule definitions we have 5 plays during this down (maybe 6 if we count the fair catch after the 2nd kick as a 0 yard running play):

1.  A backward pass play (the snap)
2.  A kick play (the 1st kick that was blocked)
3.  A loose ball play (the period between the block and A's re-possessing the ball)
4.  A running play (after team A re-possession and prior to the 2nd kick)
5.  A kick play (that finally crosses the NZ).

Yeah but under 2-30-3 , those all get rolled into a scrimmage kick play, right?

There's a snap....and there's an eventual scrimmage kick. No matter how many types of plays occur in the interim, it still meets the definition of a scrimmage kick play.

Say the punter muffs the snap. He picks it up and starts to run. While he's running, say B holds 10 yards beyond the neutral zone. The punter changes his mind and kicks it.

We wouldn't say, "The hold occurred while A was running the ball so it should be previous spot."  Because once A kicks it, we've got a scrimmage kick play.

The only timing condition to B's foul is that it occurs before the END of the kick.  In the case play, B's foul occurs before the qualifying kick. But so what?  It still occurred before the kick ended.

This should be PSK all the way, imo.

[Kalle]

By rule definitions we have 5 plays during this down (maybe 6 if we count the fair catch after the 2nd kick as a 0 yard running play):

Actually, we don't. We have a single kick play (and any additional running plays after the last legal kick is caught) and any foul during that kick play is enforced as per kick play rules. This is what the rules say - the kick play starts at the snap and ends when the ball is caught. It is completely irrelevant that there might be multiple kicks.

Now, change the last kick into a legal forward pass and we can get some interesting discussion...

[NVFOA_Ump]

So with a very "minor modification" what do we have with this "scrimmage kick play" and are we enforcing the holding as a PSK foul?

 - A 4/15/A20. Punter A-55 is standing on the A7.
 - At the snap, he is under a heavy rush and the ball is partially blocked at the A8.
 - The ball continues in awkward flight and strikes B79 at the A20.
 - B-97 runs forward and picks up the loose ball on the run at the A20 and starts toward the EZ
 - A-55 knocks the ball out of B-97's possession at the A10
 - A-55 picks it up, runs to toward the sideline and punts it again at the A19
 - B-14 makes a fair catch at the 50.
 - During the first kick, defender B-97 held gunner A-41 at the A24.

What do we have?

[Kalle]

- A-55 picks it up, runs to toward the sideline and punts it again at the A19
 - B-14 makes a fair catch at the 50.
 - During the first kick, defender B-97 held gunner A-41 at the A24.

What do we have?

We have an illegal kick (return kick) by A-55, ball becomes dead immediately at the spot of the kick ie. A19. There is no kick that crossed the neutral zone, so no PSK available. Team A did not foul before last gaining team possession, so they may decline all team B fouls and keep the ball. Team A declines the holding foul. Enforce illegal kick penalty, team A 1st and 10 at A14.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Very interesting play and discussion here.

Rule 2-30-3 - A scrimmage kick play is the interval between the snap and when a scrimmage kick comes into player possession or the ball is declared dead by rule.

Since the definition of a scrimmage kick play says it starts at the snap, can we have two scrimmage kick plays here...or only one?  We only have one snap so if we have two scrimmage kick plays, when do each of them begin?

So given that Rule 2-30-3 reads - A scrimmage kick play is the interval between the snap and when a scrimmage kick comes into player possession or the ball is declared dead by rule, why would we treat this "play" differently from the original post?  How does the actual COP get handled in context to the seeming inflexability of the wording?

[Andrew McCarthy]

What is the definition of a scrimmage kick?

[McRef77]

Thanks for the great discussion on this.

Okay, same play below with some changes...

A 4/15/A20. Punter A-55 is standing on the A7. At the snap, he is under a heavy rush and the ball is partially blocked at the A8. The ball continues in awkward flight and strikes A-79 at the A18. A-55 runs forward and picks up the loose ball at the A19 and punts it again and runs forward to the A28 where he fumbles and B77 recovers while downed. B-14 makes a fair catch at the 50. During the first kick, defender B-97 held gunner A-41 at the A25.

Does the fact that A55 ran with the ball instead of re-kicking it matter?  Ball still crosses NZ.  Are all components of PSK satisfied?

[TXMike]

On the orig issue...what do we think the intent of PSKE is?  I say it is to limit the severity of the penalty to Team B for fouls that have no bearing on what is going on back at or behind the line of scrimmage.  In the orig play, I believe we should apply PSKE

[NVFOA_Ump]

On the orig issue...what do we think the intent of PSKE is? 

1.  To acknowledge that by kicking the ball beyond the NZ A has given up legal possession
2.  To minimize the number of times that kick plays get re-played due to:
      a. high incidence of injury
      b. most difficult plays for officials to cover
      c. most time consuming plays especially with do-overs
3.  To eliminate the need to try and judge exactly where the ball was in conjunction with players and the NZ when a flag is thrown .....

[TXMike]

So apply it in the orig play