Author Topic: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line  (Read 34322 times)

Offline golfingref

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Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« on: October 16, 2010, 03:56:53 PM »
Can someone help me out!!  Linesman throws bean bag to signal fumble.  White hat says play on field ruled TD.  Replay not conclusive.  Why was Auburn given a TD?  Yes, I am a Hog fan.

Online TxSkyBolt

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 04:05:35 PM »
Maybe recovered by offense in the EZ?

Offline golfingref

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 04:16:16 PM »
No.  Recovered by the defense at the 1 yd line and advanced out to about the 10.  Ball never crossed the goal line.

arkansaswhitehat

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 06:05:40 PM »
Obviously replay is not working too well in this game. 

Offline TXMike

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »
Is this the play?

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/10/sec_explains_fannin_touchdownf.html

The SEC explained its officials' ruling on a controversial touchdown by Auburn's Mario Fannin in the first half against Arkansas today. Fannin lost the ball around the goal line. After conferring, the officials on the field ruled the play a touchdown and instant replay upheld it.


In a prepared statement issued through a league spokesman, SEC coordinator of officials Rogers Redding said: "The head linesman signaled touchdown. The line judge signaled fumble. After discussion between the two, it was agreed upon that the head linesman had a better unobstructed view of the play. The call on the field became a touchdown and was then reviewed in the replay booth. The replay official did not have enough video evidence to overturn the call on the field."


Good call? Bad call? Clearly it was a confusing call.

Offline golfingref

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 11:05:50 PM »
The ball was in the right hand of the running back, on the line judge's side of the field.  The head linesman was on the left hand side of the running back, 2/3 of the way across the field.  I hope they come up with a better reason than that.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 11:09:52 PM by golfingref »

Offline Welpe

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Offline TXMike

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 11:24:32 PM »
The L was obstructed by the Arkansas player.  No way he saw it come loose, just as the video does not show it come loose.  It definitely did but hard to see when it did.  Does seem the runner's arms (where the ball WAS) seem to get to the GL empty.  Maybe the SEC response is a cryptic way of saying they had video problems?  Does not seem like a strong endorsement for the outcome of the play.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 07:54:13 AM »
The human element of officiating.  Even with a million dollars worth of technology, we can't tell and ultimately this call comes down to the teamwork of the guys on the field.  This thing is so close that it's virtually impossible to tell.  I'd have a hard time with H telling me that he could really see the ball here...his feet aren't set straddling the goal line, which means that his head is still moving and the ball carriers body is between him and the ball.  In the end, they had to make a decision and they went with it.  That's football.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2010, 08:45:46 AM »
Where's the U in this discussion? He was the closest official to the play, and had a spectacular pretty darn good view.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 10:00:00 AM »
U's perspective is perpendicular to the goal line.  No way he can tell for sure on one this close.

The camera on the L's side that gives the best view is even skewed because it's apparent that it is not directly on the goal line...more like 3-4 yards deep in the end zone.  The cameras rarely have a straight line view on the plane of the goal line...the refs straddling the pylon get in their way.  This is inconclusive by all objective accounts. 

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 12:37:20 PM »
Maybe the SEC response is a cryptic way of saying they had video problems? 

I checked, there were no video problems.  There simply was not enough evidence to change the call on the field.  Had the call on the field been a fumble, that call would have stood as well.

Now, was the call on the field handled well?  That's a different question.

Offline SWilliams

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 01:56:12 PM »
First rule of officiating goal line scenarios...see the ball.  How can anyone looking for the ball not see the ball between his feet? and if they didn't see the ball then why didn't the L signal Touchdown.  It was not possessed, nor did it cross the endzone.  No one signaled touchdown.  The L marked the spot and signals 1st down Arkansas at around the 4 yard line.  He had a loose ball, recovered and advanced.  Now everyone is saying he was obstructed?  He didn't think so, nor do I.

The L knew what he had.  He should have stood his ground.

Regarding my comments, I know at game speed it was a tough call, but after going to the multimillion dollar replay system, I don't see how they cannot get it right.  It's why for the next few weeks we here in Arkansas at the high school level will be mocked/compared to that officiating crew, the same way we were for a half season last year being compared to the officiating crew from the Florida/Arkansas '09 game.

Scott Williams
Little Rock, Arkansas

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john3459

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2010, 04:48:58 PM »
Amen Mr. Williams!!  Here come the chants  "S-E-C"  again!   ;D

Offline TXMike

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2010, 04:51:49 PM »
Since many HS officials seem driven to be a "college official" I would think the HS guys there like that.

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2010, 08:42:26 PM »
Where's the U in this discussion? He was the closest official to the play, and had a spectacular pretty darn good view.

Nowhere, because he ain't standing on the goal line.

A cynical person might, at this point, make some guess at the direction in which your thoughts are heading...

Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2010, 01:05:03 AM »
Luckily none of us are cynics.  yEs:
For every coach that thinks we got it wrong there's another that thinks we got it right.

KB

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2010, 01:41:15 AM »
It should have been ruled fumble on the field. The only contact that could have caused the ball to come loose is way outside the EZ, so the runner must already have lost possession in the FOP.

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2010, 05:01:16 AM »
[yt=425,350]c5J57vlgQfg[/yt]
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 09:39:27 AM by Grant - AR »

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2010, 05:02:54 AM »
Looks like a fumble to me.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2010, 05:58:28 AM »
Nowhere, because he ain't standing on the goal line.

A cynical person might, at this point, make some guess at the direction in which your thoughts are heading...

Nah, I've flogged that point enough.

It just seemed to me that the U probably had some idea of whether the ball carrier had possession or not. I'm not, however, certain that the ball carrier was a key at that time.

I think this whole series demonstrates a fundamental for all of us - if you can't see the ball, don't make the call.

Lash

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2010, 09:15:49 AM »
Nah, I've flogged that point enough.

It just seemed to me that the U probably had some idea of whether the ball carrier had possession or not. I'm not, however, certain that the ball carrier was a key at that time.

I think this whole series demonstrates a fundamental for all of us - if you can't see the ball, don't make the call.
That's the thing I don't understand, and have come to this board to try to figure out. As much as I hate to say it(yes, I'm an Arkansas fan) I can understand how the replay official held it a TD. I think he's wrong, because you can clearly see the ball carriers hands with no ball in them and as someone mentioned above, contact was made before the goalline so it had to come out before that. But, from the replay it could be somehow possible that the ball was in between his legs or something weird so I can see not having indisputable evidence to overturn it.

What gets me, is why the call was changed before the replay. The guy that was right there called it a fumble, and supposedly(although there is nothing to confirm this and all video evidence points to the contrary) the guy on the far side of the endzone called it a TD. The ref somehow decided to take his word for it when he was behind the ball carrier and couldn't possibly see the ball. How do you change that play with at least 2 other officials that were closer calling it a fumble? Especially when you know you are going to have to review it any way and can change it then if video supports it. I think the ref tied the replay official's hands by switching the call before it was reviewed.

I'm not saying it was a conspiracy or anything like that, I just think it was a badly blown call by the ref, and a mistake by the guy that called it a TD when he couldn't see the ball.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2010, 09:26:30 AM »
Many of us have associates working in conferences with IR.  We have been told by them there is a "philosophy", sometimes stated, sometimes not, to let the play go and then you can have IR "clean it up". 

This situation is also a reminder that the speed with which a TD is signalled is immaterial.  There is NO requirement a signal be given at the precise moment an official "thinks" a TD has been earned.  By slowing down you give yourself and others more of a chance to process what you have "seen".

Lash

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2010, 09:56:37 AM »
Many of us have associates working in conferences with IR.  We have been told by them there is a "philosophy", sometimes stated, sometimes not, to let the play go and then you can have IR "clean it up". 

This situation is also a reminder that the speed with which a TD is signalled is immaterial.  There is NO requirement a signal be given at the precise moment an official "thinks" a TD has been earned.  By slowing down you give yourself and others more of a chance to process what you have "seen".
That makes sense, I just don't understand why it didn't happen here. An officially supposedly called TD without really seeing the ball, and then changed the call of those that did see it, instead of letting the replay clean it up.

Offline txmustang68

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Re: Auburn/Arkansas fumble at the goal line
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2010, 11:06:13 AM »
GEAUX Tigers!  (the real ones from Baton Rouge, that is)
Lash, in no way am I a Razorbacks fan - personally, I don't accept them to this day as an SEC team.  BUT, I am in 100% agreement with you.  That was a fumble and Arkansas was robbed.   It was a bad call on the field, and I do think there was plenty of evidence to overturn the call.
 ^no