Protection for the kicker / holder

[Aussie-Zebra]

This subject has popped up and we'd love some input from the experts in regards to protection for the kicker and holder. When does a kick start - before the snap when they are in a kick formation or when the kicker actually kicks the ball ?

[Kalle]

You can't have roughing (or running into) a kicker (or holder) until after the kick has been made, as there is no kicker (nor holder) until then. So, any contact that starts before the leg hits the ball is legal, no matter how hard.


See the definition of kicker which should help.

[Atlanta Blue]

So, any contact that starts before the leg hits the ball is legal, no matter how hard.

NO!!!

While it is not roughing the kicker or holder, it may still be a personal foul.

[Kalle]

NO!!!

While it is not roughing the kicker or holder, it may still be a personal foul.

Yes, thanks, should have said that it can't be a foul for roughing the kicker

[Aussie-Zebra]

I would have thought the holder was a defenseless player.

[Kalle]

I would have thought the holder was a defenseless player.

Strangely he isn't listed in the rule book as such, but even if he were (and he should be) that doesn't automatically make any contact against him illegal, only contacts above shoulders.

[Diablo]

I would have thought the holder was a defenseless player.

Technically, if he has possession of the ball and a kicker is in place, the holder is a ball carrier.  Granted he has a certain degree of defenselessness (?), but he can be tackled.

[TexRef2280]

So, does this mean that if Team A is lined up for a field goal, Team B players who make it through the line can go legally tackle the holder if the kicker has not yet started his leg in a kicking motion toward the ball?

[NVFOA_Ump]

So, does this mean that if Team A is lined up for a field goal, Team B players who make it through the line can go legally tackle the holder if the kicker has not yet started his leg in a kicking motion toward the ball?

The holder (as Diablo noted also a runner by rule), can be "tackled" until the ball is actually kicked.

[Kalle]

See A.R. 9-1-4-I, and compare this to the language in rule 2-27-3-a and b.

[Aussie-Zebra]

2-27-3
Kicker and Holder
ARTICLE 3. a. The kicker is any player who punts, drop kicks or place
kicks according to rule. He remains the kicker until he has had a reasonable
time to regain his balance.
b. A holder is a player who controls the ball on the ground or on a kicking
tee. During a scrimmage-kick play, he remains the holder until no player
is in position to make the kick or, if the ball is kicked, until the kicker
has had a reasonable time to regain his balance.

Roughing or Running Into Kicker or Holder—ARTICLE 4
Approved Ruling 9-1-4

I. A1 catches a long snap and plans to punt from behind his line of
scrimmage but misses the ball, which falls to the ground. A1 is then
contacted by B1. RULING: Team A fumble. There is no kicker until
the ball is kicked, so B1 is not guilty of roughing the kicker.

II. A1 kicks the ball, after which B1, unable to stop his attempt to block
the kick, runs into the kicker or holder. RULING: Penalty—Five
yards from the previous spot. Roughing and 15 yards and first
down if in question as to whether the foul is “running into’’ or
“roughing.’’

III. A1, from a non scrimmage kick formation, makes a quick, unexpected
kick so suddenly that B1 cannot avoid contact. RULING: This is not
roughing or running into the kicker since the rule applies only when
it is reasonably obvious that a kick will be made.

IV. B1 runs into player A1, who has kicked the ball and has had a
reasonable time to regain his balance. RULING: Not a foul by B1
unless ruled as running into or throwing himself against an opponent
obviously out of the play (Rule 9-1-2-j).

V. After B1 runs into the kicker, kicker A25 simulates being roughed.
RULING: Offsetting fouls.

VI. Kicker A1, in a scrimmage kick formation, moves laterally two or
three steps to recover a faulty snap, or recovers a snap that went
over his head and then kicks the ball. He is contacted by B2 in
an unsuccessful attempt to block the kick. RULING: A1 does not
automatically lose his protection in either case unless he carries the
ball outside the tackle box. While in the tackle box A1 is entitled
to protection as in any other kicking situation. When it becomes
obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal punting position,
defensive players must avoid him.

VII. Punter A22 is 15 yards behind the neutral zone when he catches
the long snap, sprints to his right at an angle toward the line of
scrimmage, and runs outside the tackle box. He then stops and
punts the ball, and is immediately hit by a diving B89. RULING:
Legal play, no foul by B89. A22 loses his roughing or running-into
protection by carrying the ball outside the tackle box.

Yet Rule 9-1-4 states

Roughing or Running Into Kicker or Holder
ARTICLE 4. a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no
opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick
(A.R. 5-2-2-I and A.R. 9-1-4-I, III and VI).

[Kalle]

Yet Rule 9-1-4 states

See the other 9-1-4 AR's. You have to have both a kick and it to be obvious, before you can have roughing/running into. If either requirement is missing, no RTK foul.

[Atlanta Blue]

See the other 9-1-4 AR's. You have to have both a kick and it to be obvious, before you can have roughing/running into. If either requirement is missing, no RTK foul.

True, but there is no requirement for there to be a kick to have a HOLDER.  A holder is a holder as long as there is a player in POSITION to be a kicker, and he is holding the ball.  So it seems the holder should get protection earlier than the kicker.

[Aussie-Zebra]

I am thinking mainly about the holder but as you mention it
looking at the other AR's these two are relevant but they seem to conflict

9-1-4-I
There is no kicker until the ball is kicked

9-1-4-VI
When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a normal punting position,defensive players must avoid him.

and yep I realize that in a punt there is no holder just trying to get a feel for the philosophies.

[yteside]

Most of your discussion is about the holder and kicker, but remember, that there does NOT have to be a kick to have roughing the snapper.  Just a difference between the two situations.

[TheStrippedOne]

once the kick has taken place, the holder gets the same protection as the kicker, hes on the floor out of the play and has no means to defend himself therefore a defencless player, i would use the same judgement for contact against him as i would the kicker, but if the kick has not taken place and he still has the ball hes free meat

[Atlanta Blue]

once the kick has taken place, the holder gets the same protection as the kicker, hes on the floor out of the play and has no means to defend himself therefore a defencless player, i would use the same judgement for contact against him as i would the kicker, but if the kick has not taken place and he still has the ball hes free meat

Why?  A holder is a holder as long as there is a player in a position to kick.  So he's a holder BEFORE there is a kick.  So why doesn't roughing the holder apply before the kick?

9-1-4 says you cannot run into the holder or kicker when it is obvious a kick will be made.  This implies that the protection for the holder begins BEFORE the kick.

[TxSkyBolt]

Why?  A holder is a holder as long as there is a player in a position to kick.  So he's a holder BEFORE there is a kick.  So why doesn't roughing the holder apply before the kick?

9-1-4 says you cannot run into the holder or kicker when it is obvious a kick will be made.  This implies that the protection for the holder begins BEFORE the kick.

So if the "holder" is holding the ball down for a place kick with a player in a position to make a kick, he can remain in that position indefinitely without being contacted?  Don't think so....

[NVFOA_Ump]

Why?  A holder is a holder as long as there is a player in a position to kick.  So he's a holder BEFORE there is a kick.  So why doesn't roughing the holder apply before the kick?

9-1-4 says you cannot run into the holder or kicker when it is obvious a kick will be made.  This implies that the protection for the holder begins BEFORE the kick.

Why? - Because there are overlapping rules here such that once he receives the snap and until the kick actually occurs the holder, is also by definition a runner.  While he is in possession of the ball (before the kick occurs), he can be legally tackled.  That does not mean that the defender gets a "free shot" and we still have to use our judgment on any hit prior to a kick taking place (above the shoulders, helmet to helmet, etc ....).

[KB]

A player becomes the holder when a legal scrimmage kick for which he positioned the ball on the ground IS MADE. When no legal scrimmage kick is made, there is no Scrimmage Kick Play and therefore there can't be a holder as defined in Rule 2-27-3-b ("During a scrimmage kick play ...").
When a "holder" is tackled while in possession of the ball, he is (only) afforded the same protection that any other runner has (Facemask, Spearing, and so on).

[Atlanta Blue]

A player becomes the holder when a legal scrimmage kick for which he positioned the ball on the ground IS MADE. When no legal scrimmage kick is made, there is no Scrimmage Kick Play and therefore there can't be a holder as defined in Rule 2-27-3-b ("During a scrimmage kick play ...").
.

Can't be true.  Using that logic, if there is no kick, he was never a holder, and the exception to allow him to have his knee on the ground wouldn't exist.  If nothing else, play #8 in the NCAA bulletin last week would show that is incorrect.

In addition, there could never be a fake where he rises after having the ball in his possession with a knee on the ground, and we know those happen.

[Kalle]

Can't be true.  Using that logic, if there is no kick, he was never a holder, and the exception to allow him to have his knee on the ground wouldn't exist.  If nothing else, play #8 in the NCAA bulletin last week would show that is incorrect.

In addition, there could never be a fake where he rises after having the ball in his possession with a knee on the ground, and we know those happen.

Do note that rule 4-1-3-b does not speak of a holder.

[KB]

AB: as Kalle said, the definition of "holder" has no meaning in the "dead ball" rule. The word "holder" is used in Rule 9 (Roughing the Kicker/Holder fouls) and in Rule 6 (Offside Exception for Kicker/Holder on Free Kicks), but not in Rule 4.