Author Topic: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010  (Read 11715 times)

Offline Kalle

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2010, 01:04:34 AM »
IMO the new "memo Approved Ruling" makes no difference with this play.  Since, the holder/runner's knee being down has always been part of the exception, something other than his knee needs to touch the ground for him to be ruled down.  We've got a TD.

I think we all agree that the holder is also a runner, right? Is his forward progress stopped when he has been grabbed by an opponent? If yes, then the ball is dead, right? If not, when is his forward progress stopped?

KB

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2010, 02:11:45 AM »
Since NCAA does not have an "in the grasp" rule, a player who is still able to legally pass the ball to a teammate cannot be considered as having "all his forward progress stopped".
Since the holder has his "knee exception", he cannot be ruled down until some other part of him touches the ground.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2010, 06:27:08 AM »
Since NCAA does not have an "in the grasp" rule, a player who is still able to legally pass the ball to a teammate cannot be considered as having "all his forward progress stopped".
Since the holder has his "knee exception", he cannot be ruled down until some other part of him touches the ground.

While I agree here, how is that reconciled with your other post that says a holder isn't a holder until a scrimmage kick is made?

Yes, the definition of a holder says "during a scrimmage kick play", and if there is no scrimmage kick, then by definition, there can be no scrimmage kick play.  But only a HOLDER (which by definition requires a kick) gets the exception of his knee on the ground, which happens BEFORE the kick is made.  So it seems we are granting exception rights retroactively.

And if there is never a kick, how was he able to have his knee on the ground with the ball?

Obviously, there is a bit of an incongruity here.  We give a holder rights when there is a kicker IN A POSITION to make a kick, whether that kick is actually made or not.

yteside

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2010, 07:47:34 AM »
We might be stretching it now, but I understand the point that is being made.  All the interpretation says at this point is that this particular play is legal; until there is an additional interpretation covering a variety of different plays (including the one above), or the rule is specifically reworded, I feel uncomfortable with the 'what ifs'...but again, I understand the point that is trying to be made.

Having said that, the exception doesn't even use the word 'holder'...isn't that a bit odd?  (Since we're dissecting words)

KB

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 09:44:05 AM »
AB: see my answer in the other thread.

KB

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 09:46:17 AM »
What is basically needed is one or more A.R.s clarifying the rule with regards to fake kicks. I don't think that a rewording of the rule as such is necessary.

Offline mishatx

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 12:10:23 PM »
Since NCAA does not have an "in the grasp" rule, a player who is still able to legally pass the ball to a teammate cannot be considered as having "all his forward progress stopped".
Since the holder has his "knee exception", he cannot be ruled down until some other part of him touches the ground.

The exception doesn't mention a knee, just that the ball is not dead if the player in possession who is touching the ground with any part of his body other his hand or foot is doing so while someone is in a position to kick.  You can hold from a prone position, if you so desire.

So imagine this: 4/10 from the B40, A leads 44-40 with 1:00 remaining.  A12 is the holder and A3 is in position to kick the ball.  A12 takes the snap, and assumes a prone position.  Team B players tackle/land on/touch A12, but he remains prone and does not lose control of the ball.  When is the play dead? Can he run out the entire minute?

Offline T.C. Welton

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2010, 11:19:31 PM »
This is a play that has upset me countless times and I have had more than one argument with coaches about after blowing it dead.  I have also posted regarding this stating that I believe this should be blown dead.

I agree that the memorandum does indeed constitute a rule change.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but these NCAA memo's basically carry the same force as the Approved Rulings in the rule book...please correct me if I am wrong.  I mean this in the spirit that the A.R.'s are not actually the rules but are example play situations/strange plays where the rules committee has "approved" the rulings they would like to see.  Additionally, and, in my mind, most importantly, offer valuable insight to the intent of the rules.  As I see it now, the NCAA memorandums/memorandi are the same as approved rulings without having actually gone through the rules committee.  In this specific case, I expect that #8 from this memo will become an A.R.

As for this specific topic, at this time, I have seen enough evidence from the "powers" that they clearly intend for this play to be alive and I will accordingly no longer blow this dead until I receive further and convincing contrary information.

KB

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2010, 12:34:28 AM »
The exception doesn't mention a knee, just that the ball is not dead if the player in possession who is touching the ground with any part of his body other his hand or foot is doing so while someone is in a position to kick.  You can hold from a prone position, if you so desire.

So imagine this: 4/10 from the B40, A leads 44-40 with 1:00 remaining.  A12 is the holder and A3 is in position to kick the ball.  A12 takes the snap, and assumes a prone position.  Team B players tackle/land on/touch A12, but he remains prone and does not lose control of the ball.  When is the play dead? Can he run out the entire minute?


You're right about the knee. The ball would remain live even if the holder was lying prone on the ground after recovering a bad snap. We obviously have to interpret "is in position to kick the ball" that the kicker won't be able to kick it once his teammate is buried by the defenders.

Offline Kalle

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Re: NCAA Bulletin #4 - 2010
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2010, 01:21:31 AM »
Perhaps I am mistaken, but these NCAA memo's basically carry the same force as the Approved Rulings in the rule book...please correct me if I am wrong.

Well, not exactly. NCAA play situation bulletin simply lists plays and rulings for those specific situations, whereas A.R's illustrate the spirit and the application of the rule. In theory, you should never extend a bulletin play ruling to cover anything else but the very specific circumstances in the play, but you can (slightly) extend an A.R ruling.

But you are right in that several bulletin plays have later become A.R's.

It would be nice to get either a bunch of A.R's to show us what is legal and what is not, or simply change the wording of the rule to allow the knee to be on the ground even after there is no apparent kicker, if the knee is down immediately after the snap from an obvious kicking formation.