Another Player vs Substitute scenario for discussion

[NVFOA_Ump]

Team A runs a no huddle (muddle the coach calls it) offense.  Immediately at the end of a play, A returns to the LOS in no real formation with multiple players milling around in their approximate snap locations but not actually on the line, and they are clearly not ready to snap.  At the same time A-28 (or another eligible numbered player) has entered the game as an incoming substitute.  The departing player (also an eligible numbered player) does not identify himself by starting to leave until A has gotten the call from the sideline, the A-QB has verbally called out the play, and A has begun assuming final pre-snap positions.  The time it takes to do this means that A regularly has 12 players on the field for a minimum of 10 seconds (usually more), with some plays where the 12th man does not get off until just before the snap.

Given the discussion that we recently had on a related "substitution" thread, do you have anything here, and if yes what?

[TXMike]

The replaced player has to start leavcing within 3 seconds after the incoming sub gets into position.  Sounds like a foul to me

[NVFOA_Ump]

The replaced player has to start leavcing within 3 seconds after the incoming sub gets into position.  Sounds like a foul to me

But given the "strict" interpretation of the definitions of player, substitute, and replaced player that was suggested in the other thread where the incoming substitute (a running back) , is "in motion" starting from OB, don't we have a similar problem?

The incoming substitute does not go to any huddle so the language that seems to apply is the rule 2 definition:  "..... incoming substitute becomes a player when he enters the field of play or end zones and communicates with a teammate or an official, enters the huddle, is positioned in an offensive or a defensive formation, or participates in a play."

So it appears that we can say (or at least the Head Coach of last night's game says) that until he actually takes his pre-snap position, provided he doesn't talk to anyone, he's remains an incoming substitute.  The "three second rule" as it applies directly to A, always is accompanied by "leaves the huddle" or "leaves his position" language.  Can we / should we apply the language in AR 9-2-2-IV @ FI-77 (Unfair Acts) to team A as well as team B?

[AlUpstateNY]

The Head Coach can say whatever he wants, and if he says it respectfully, an official should show the curtesy of listening.  Beyond that the final judgment is exclusively the official's and normally factors in the recognized intent of the specific rule, as opposed to some newly suggested, ""strict" interpretation of" some ancillary rules.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The Head Coach can say whatever he wants, and if he says it respectfully, an official should show the curtesy of listening.  Beyond that the final judgment is exclusively the official's.

I'll without question agree with that, but given the situation here, and a "strict" reading of the applicable definitions, and related rules, and the incoming substitute never really "assumes his position" when can we flag A for having 12 on the field?  The referenced AR seems to fit perfectly here, except it specifically applies to team B, and the result we have here is that team A has 6 potentially eligible numbered bodies on the field for an extended time before one of them finally leaves as A is getting into pre-snap positions.

Can we read the AR 9-2-2-IV to also apply to team A someting like:

IV. Between scrimmage downs, one or more Team A B substitutes enter the field of play. Before the snap for the next down, more than 11 Team A B players intentionally stay on the field of play as long as possible (more than three seconds) to disguise the offensive defensive personnel, the type of offense defense and the needed pass coverage. RULING: Dead-ball foul on Team A B, illegal substitution. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot (Rule 3-5-2-c).

[Diablo]

Agree with TXMike - substitution infraction.
3-5-2-c:  A departing player must leave the field of play immediately.  "Immediately" is defined as starting to leave within 3 secs of when the substitute arrives.  Applies to both Team A & B.

[Andrew McCarthy]

"BUT WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS ALL YEAR!!"

[NVFOA_Ump]

"BUT WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS ALL YEAR!!"

That's pretty much what he said - and last night was week 8.  Said "No one has called that all year".

[NVFOA_Ump]

Agree with TX Mike - substitution infraction.
3-5-2-c:  A departing player must leave the field of play immediately.  "Immediately" is defined as starting to leave within 3 secs of when the substitute arrives.  Applies to both Team A & B.

When is the substitute considered to have arrived since there is no huddle, and he's just kind of standing around in a random location prior to the play call?  As the Head Coach so helpfully noted, the specific replaced player is not identified until he signals in the next play to the A-QB.

Can we just start a three second count when the incoming substitute simply stops somewhere behind the LOS and treat it like he actually went into a huddle?

[Kalle]

Can we just start a three second count when the incoming substitute simply stops somewhere behind the LOS and treat it like he actually went into a huddle?

Yes we can. The spirit of the rule is to allow the opposing team to react to any substitution, and this includes knowing which player has been substituted. I'd go as far as to say that if there is no huddle, I'd start the three seconds when the player comes inside the numbers (although I probably wouldn't nitpick the actual time in this case).

Actually, this is not a 3-5-2-c foul, I'd say it is a 3-5-2-e situation and the umpire must prevent team A from snapping the ball before the replaced player has identified himself and team B has had time to compensate with a substitution.

[Diablo]

Actually, this is not a 3-5-2-c foul, I'd say it is a 3-5-2-e situation and the umpire must prevent team A from snapping the ball before the replaced player has identified himself and team B has had time to compensate with a substitution.

I agree, if the snap is imminent, the U must move forward and prevent Team A from snapping the ball.  But are you going to allow Team A to have 12 players on the field of play beyond 3 sec while Team B is or is not matching up?  To flag this situation under a 3-5-2-e infraction, you'd have to wait until the play clock expired.