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Author Topic: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers  (Read 42695 times)

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comicref

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Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« on: November 08, 2010, 10:10:12 AM »
Looks like an illegal snap to me (ball didn't leave snapper's hand immediately). I wonder if the coach ever mentioned this play to the crew before the game to ensure its legality.

[yt=425,350]0UIdI8khMkw[/yt]
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 11:18:34 AM by Grant - AR »
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LarryW60

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 10:38:49 AM »
Obviously not using Fed rules or there would have been flags.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 11:29:47 AM »
Can't hear what the coach is saying but this smells like the "wrong ball!" play, which is illegal in NCAA.
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Offline mishatx

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 11:32:07 AM »

2-23-1-e Unless moved in a backward direction, the movement of the ball does
not start a legal snap. It is not a legal snap if the ball is first moved
forward or lifted.

2-23-1-g The snap need not be between the snapper’s legs; but to be legal, it must
be a quick and continuous backward motion.
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Offline Birddog

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 12:27:28 PM »
Maybe we have someone from Corpus Christi on here who can add a little more imput to this play?
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Offline Birddog

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 12:47:36 PM »
Found this for a little more insight:

Quote
Down 6-0 with one minute to go in the third quarter of their championship game against rival Wynn Seale Saturday, the Corpus Christi middle school coaching staff pulled off a master deception. And it could only be unleashed after getting flagged for a penalty, Driscoll Rangers coach Art Rodriguez told the Daily News.

"They marked out five yards, but then [Eighth-grade quarterback Jason Garza] tells the center they're marking out five more yards," says Rodriguez.

Garza then told the center to give him the ball - technically hiking it to start the play - and pretended to mark off the additional yardage. Once he was clear of the defensive line, Garza made a break for the end zone. The 6-6 score after the missed extra point was the game's final.

"This is first time we ever tried it," says Rodriguez of the Penalty Play drawn up by assistant coach John Delosantos. "And it worked."



 
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LarryW60

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 01:47:37 PM »
NFHS has clearly stated this kind of play is unsportsmanlike conduct because it uses verbiage to make the defense believe the snap is not imminent.  Just once, I'd like to see video of a team trying something like this and the quarterback getting creamed as the linesman provide no protection.  It might put a stop to these assistant coaches who think they're football geniuses.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 03:45:12 PM »
Illegal under NCAA rules.  Using equipment to confuse.  Same as the "wrong ball" play.
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Offline TexDoc

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 09:12:18 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 08, 2010, 03:45:12 PM
Illegal under NCAA rules.  Using equipment to confuse.  Same as the "wrong ball" play.

Beyond that, it was an illegal snap.  It should have been dead immediately.  Good job Corpus boys!  Maybe that's why they want to be UIL so bad.  They really seem to know the rules.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 09:15:32 PM »
The snap was borderline. I assume you are saying illegal as there was a very slight hesitation in the release of the ball? In games at this level such snaps are routinely allowed when they are between the legs.
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Offline mishatx

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 01:01:35 AM »
Illegal because it's upward, and not backward.
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KB

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 01:41:21 AM »
It never moves forward, so that is not a problem. A snap would be legal if the snapper just threw it backward over his shoulder. The only problem with this snap is the slight hesitation before the QB picks it out of the snappers's hand.
You would not call that with a "regular" snap, but on trick plays I use to be extra sharp to prohibit legitimate complaints by the "tricked" team. Under NCAA rules, this play would be legal if the release of the ball was immediate.

Since there is verbal communication before the snap, illegal all the way under Fed rules AFAIK.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 02:05:41 AM »
Quote from: KB on November 09, 2010, 01:41:21 AM
Under NCAA rules, this play would be legal if the release of the ball was immediate.


I'd call this as using equipment (the ball) to deceive the defense into thinking that there will be no snap.
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KB

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 04:13:01 AM »
Quote from: Kalle on November 09, 2010, 02:05:41 AM
I'd call this as using equipment (the ball) to deceive the defense into thinking that there will be no snap.


Is the ball "equipment"? The ball is dealt with in 1-3, player's equipment in 1-4.

What (NCAA) rule and A.R. would you reference in your pregame talk with the coach when you want to tell him this play is illegal?
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 04:33:34 AM »
Quote from: KB on November 09, 2010, 04:13:01 AM
What (NCAA) rule and A.R. would you reference in your pregame talk with the coach when you want to tell him this play is illegal?

JA and RR have both very consistently ruled that any verbiage that fools the defense into thinking that the snap is not imminent is illegal. That consistency is the basis for my ruling.

I know this is not written in the rules, but I feel that it is a valid interpretation of the existing rules, A.R's and other rulings. This is similar to the QB walking towards a receiver yelling "move wider" and the ball being snapped to a RB, which I think has been ruled illegal.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2010, 05:43:05 AM »
From Redding's Guide:

"Actions or verbiage designed to confue the defense into believing the snap is not imminent, are not legal.  This includes pretending to have a problem with the play that has been called, an equipment problem with a shoe, the ball, etc. and feigning an injury.  A good rule of thumb to follow is that if an act appears to be unfair, it is probably contyrary to the rules."
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2010, 06:19:17 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 09, 2010, 05:43:05 AM
From Redding's Guide:

"Actions or verbiage designed to confue the defense into believing the snap is not imminent, are not legal.  This includes pretending to have a problem with the play that has been called, an equipment problem with a shoe, the ball, etc. and feigning an injury.  A good rule of thumb to follow is that if an act appears to be unfair, it is probably contyrary to the rules."

Based on that the attempted fake field goal in the UT Kansas State game would be illegal....
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 06:23:16 AM »
What happened?
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Offline WingOfficial

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 08:24:02 AM »
Quote from: mishatx on November 08, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
2-23-1-e Unless moved in a backward direction, the movement of the ball does
not start a legal snap. It is not a legal snap if the ball is first moved
forward or lifted.

This ball is first lifted.  Illegal snap.  Too bad this play is getting all of this media attention.  Now we're going to have to deal with "copy cat" coaches trying plays like this in their games because they saw it on TV.
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Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2010, 09:19:20 AM »
I have a hypothetical for y'all.  Let's remove the verbiage and run this play silently. QB comes up behind center.  Center hands him the ball over the shoulder, as shown.  Defenders hesitate because they're young and inexperienced and it looks odd.  QB takes off for a long gain.

I'm not seeing any issue that makes it inherently illegal; certainly the snap itself seems to me to be as backward as it is upward...
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2010, 09:19:58 AM »
Agree
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2010, 09:25:15 AM »
Quote from: Osric Pureheart on November 09, 2010, 09:19:20 AM
I'm not seeing any issue that makes it inherently illegal; certainly the snap itself seems to me to be as backward as it is upward...

Yup, I'm fine with the snap, given the level of the play.
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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2010, 10:48:25 AM »
Quote from: Osric Pureheart on November 09, 2010, 09:19:20 AM
I have a hypothetical for y'all.  Let's remove the verbiage and run this play silently. QB comes up behind center.  Center hands him the ball over the shoulder, as shown.  Defenders hesitate because they're young and inexperienced and it looks odd.  QB takes off for a long gain.

I'm not seeing any issue that makes it inherently illegal; certainly the snap itself seems to me to be as backward as it is upward...

Please, don't start down the "hypothetical" road this type play leads to, there's only grief at the end of it.  This is not a place to split hairs down to the gnat's eyelash level.  This type of play is like a bucket without a bottom.  Of the sane choices available, illegal snap is the cleanest.  Save UNC for if someone is dumb enough to try it a second time, after being
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McRef77

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 10:54:34 AM »
This play and players involved are on FoxNews as we speak.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Oh, Those Tricky Middle Schoolers
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 10:56:28 AM »
Yep and listening to  the coach proves why this should be 15 and not 5.  He was heavily involved in this BS.  (and the snap wasn't all that bad anyway)
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