Author Topic: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV  (Read 17214 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KPKLR

  • Guest
Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« on: November 08, 2010, 06:44:03 PM »
Yahoo is featuring a clip from TV about a junior high QB who steps off ``penalty'' then runs to end zone. Clear case of unsportsmanlike conduct?

Link is here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Video-The-middle-school-trick-play-that-gained-?urn=highschool-283434

Jason Kramer

  • Guest

Offline Curious

  • *
  • Posts: 1314
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-50
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 08:50:06 PM »
Yahoo is featuring a clip from TV about a junior high QB who steps off ``penalty'' then runs to end zone. Clear case of unsportsmanlike conduct?

Link is here: http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog/prep_rally/post/Video-The-middle-school-trick-play-that-gained-?urn=highschool-283434

Agreed - USC.  But does the snap ITSELF look "legal?

jjseikel

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 10:00:02 PM »
Shut it down. Snap infraction.

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 3145
  • FAN REACTION: +124/-29
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 07:06:48 AM »
 :!#
Immediate dead ball and USC.  No way I'd let 'em off the hook with only 5 yards.  ^flag

LarryW60

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 07:19:04 AM »
It's not a USC until they actually snap it - just like illegal motion and illegal shift, so you wouldn't be able to whistle it dead until the play is over.  While I'd LOVE to hit them with the USC for this, flagging for a USC means enforcement from the succeeding spot and they still get the score. I'd rather go with the snap infraction to shut it down before the play happens.

The snapper has two distinct motions to the snap (1. diagonally back and to the side, and 2. straight back and diagonally up) and the rules only allow for one, continuous motion.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 07:28:02 AM by Fadamor »

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 07:40:09 AM »
It's not a USC until they actually snap it - just like illegal motion and illegal shift, so you wouldn't be able to whistle it dead until the play is over.  While I'd LOVE to hit them with the USC for this, flagging for a USC means enforcement from the succeeding spot and they still get the score. I'd rather go with the snap infraction to shut it down before the play happens.


While the foul does not occur until the snap, it is NOT penalized from the succeeding spot.  It is an "Unfair Act", and is considered to have happened BEFORE the snap. See case play for "where's the tee?":

9.9.1 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells,
“Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward
his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared
dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.

It was the actions of the QB and the coach that made this USC, and those happened before the snap.

LarryW60

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 12:14:20 PM »
Yeah yeah.  I was already corrected on this over on the Fed site.  It would be nice if the rules book was a little more consistent, however.  They've felt this was an unfair act for a while now, but have done nothing to codify it other than tossing in a casebook scenario.  At least put something in the Special Enforcements section to note that this type of USC is enforced differently (i.e. from the previous spot) than "normal" USC's.

In the end it's all good.  Now I can flag for USC and not worry about the offending team keeping any resulting score!

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 12:28:46 PM »
Yeah yeah.  I was already corrected on this over on the Fed site. 

Yes, but I was more respectful about it!

Offline ck4597

  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-1
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 03:13:59 PM »
Not seeing a snap infraction here....it appears as one motion from the ground over his left shoulder....appears like a great play until you hear the coach explain that he was yelling that it should be a 10 yard penalty for encroachment and he has his QB try to make off the other 5 yards by asking for the ball....USC for sure

Mike L

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 05:00:41 PM »
So snapper lifting the ball up to his opposite shoulder and holding it there for the QB to take constitutes a quick and direct backward motion for you?

110

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 05:53:28 PM »
As an aside, I thought I'd fire out the Canuck rules - which clearly prevent this sort of junk.
Quote
Article 1 - Action of Center
On a scrimmage play, the centre of Team A shall take up his position facing the opponents' goal line with
the ball on the ground in front of him, He shall put the ball in play by "snapping" it between his legs in one
continuous motion in the direction from toe to heel
, The ball must leave the centers hand or hands and he
shall not again handle it until it has been in possession of another player, Any player who takes a position
over the ball, with one or both hands on the ball, shall snap the ball, and be considered as the centre
(subject to Rule 4, Section 3, Article 3 exception).


Emphasis mine.

Now, I haven't cracked an NHFS book in four years, but I thought there was a similar between-the-legs definition?

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 06:50:32 PM »
As an aside, I thought I'd fire out the Canuck rules - which clearly prevent this sort of junk.

Emphasis mine.

Now, I haven't cracked an NHFS book in four years, but I thought there was a similar between-the-legs definition?


No, there is no requirement in FED for the snap to be between the legs. 

Offline ck4597

  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-1
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 08:48:20 PM »
Yes this snap looks fine to me....these are 7th and 8th grade players, not going to be super quick snap eveen if between legs.  No snap  Infraction here at all

Luke

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 12:27:03 AM »
Yeah yeah.  I was already corrected on this over on the Fed site.  It would be nice if the rules book was a little more consistent, however.  They've felt this was an unfair act for a while now, but have done nothing to codify it other than tossing in a casebook scenario.  At least put something in the Special Enforcements section to note that this type of USC is enforced differently (i.e. from the previous spot) than "normal" USC's.

So you used to think that this was a normal USC foul?  Other than an unfair act this is how a player gets a USC foul.  Wrong ball type plays don't fit under any of them.

SECTION 5 NONCONTACT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT BY PLAYERS
ART. 1 . . . No player shall act in an unsportsmanlike manner once the officials
assume authority for the contest. Examples are, but not limited to:
a. Baiting or taunting acts or words or insignia worn which engenders ill will.
NOTE: The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting which is intended or designed
to embarrass, ridicule or demean others under any circumstances including on the
basis of race, religion, gender or national origin.
b. Using profanity, insulting or vulgar language or gestures.
c. Any delayed, excessive or prolonged act by which a player attempts to
focus attention upon himself.
d. Using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to
interfere with A’s signals or movements.
e. Kicking at the ball, other than during a legal kick.
f. Leaving the field between downs to gain an advantage unless replaced or
unless with permission of an official.
g. Refusing to comply with an official’s request.
h. Using tobacco or smokeless tobacco.

There is no way that this play would be a normal USC foul.  The only way it can be a foul is as an unfair act.

SECTION 9 UNFAIR ACTS
ART. 1 . . . A player or nonplayer or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not
hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage.
ART. 2 . . . No team shall repeatedly commit fouls which halve the distance to
the goal line.
ART. 3 . . . No player shall hide the ball under a jersey.
ART. 4 . . . No player shall use a kicking tee in violation of Rule 1-3-4.
ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the
referee, tends to make a travesty of the game.

So yes, unfair acts are a type of USC fouls but they are penalized differently.

SECTION 5 SPECIAL ENFORCEMENT RULES
ART. 1 . . . The following fouls have special enforcement provisions and options for the offended team:
c. Unfair acts. (see 9-9)

In the end it's all good.  Now I can flag for USC and not worry about the offending team keeping any resulting score!

You needed the case play to know that you shouldn't allow the score?  It is an unfair act.  You don't allow teams to commit unfair acts and score.  The team committed an unfair act which allowed them to score a touchdown and you can enforce any penalty you feel like and you decide to let them keep the score and enforce the USC from the succeeding spot.  That is just crazy.

PENALTY: Unfair act – the referee enforces any penalty he considers equitable, including the award of a score – (S27).

LarryW60

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 07:52:38 AM »
Wow.  Lots of anger there.  This IS a USC action even if the Fed hasn't gotten off their butts and actually MADE it so.  Using verbiage to deceive the defense into thinking the snap was not imminent has been a foul for years now yet the Fed still relies on the "actions not covered by the rules" as a crutch.  I guess it's too much trouble to actually write: "9-5-1i: Using verbiage intended to make B believe the snap is not imminent." (HOLY SH**! I just wrote a rule that the Fed apparently can't!!!) :!#

The reason I WANT to flag this as unsportsmanlike conduct is because it IS unsportsmanlike conduct.  My justification is the second sentence in 9-5-1... the one that says, "Examples are, but not limited to:"

The PROBLEM with this is USC's are currently enforced from the succeeding spot.  The one proposal I've heard where USCs during a live ball would be enforced as spot fouls would solve this, but that isn't an option currently.  So an alternative is to at least add a Special Enforcement dictating this type of foul is a dead ball previous spot foul.  Hey, then the Case Book aligns with the Rules Book on this matter.  Imagine that?

Offline east louis

  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-15
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 09:14:13 AM »
the kid was said to have verbally deceived the defense--9-9-1 play B in NFHS casebook---UNS penalty

110

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2010, 10:37:27 AM »
Wow.  Lots of anger there.  This IS a USC action even if the Fed hasn't gotten off their butts and actually MADE it so.  Using verbiage to deceive the defense into thinking the snap was not imminent has been a foul for years now yet the Fed still relies on the "actions not covered by the rules" as a crutch.  I guess it's too much trouble to actually write: "9-5-1i: Using verbiage intended to make B believe the snap is not imminent." (HOLY SH**! I just wrote a rule that the Fed apparently can't!!!) :!#

The reason I WANT to flag this as unsportsmanlike conduct is because it IS unsportsmanlike conduct.  My justification is the second sentence in 9-5-1... the one that says, "Examples are, but not limited to:"

The PROBLEM with this is USC's are currently enforced from the succeeding spot.  The one proposal I've heard where USCs during a live ball would be enforced as spot fouls would solve this, but that isn't an option currently.  So an alternative is to at least add a Special Enforcement dictating this type of foul is a dead ball previous spot foul.  Hey, then the Case Book aligns with the Rules Book on this matter.  Imagine that?

So kill the play for illegal forward motion by the QB. Again, I could have sworn this was an NHFS snap infraction.

Bullycon

  • Guest
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 10:48:59 AM »
So kill the play for illegal forward motion by the QB. Again, I could have sworn this was an NHFS snap infraction.

I say it is. The slowness of the snap is half the reason the defense is deceived. Most 6-year-olds can snap a ball faster than that.

But, if there are those who want to call that "quick," the quarterback is breaking the plane of the snapper's waistline, and is therefore a lineman. A legal snap must first touch the ground or a back before a lineman may touch it.

Also, for enforcing unsportsmanlike conduct, while the snap may be required for you to notice that they are deceiving the defense, the actions and verbiage that caused the deception occurred prior to the snap. Therefore, we have a dead-ball foul before the snap. There is no reason to allow a score here.

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 11:03:53 AM »
But, if there are those who want to call that "quick," the quarterback is breaking the plane of the snapper's waistline, and is therefore a lineman. A legal snap must first touch the ground or a back before a lineman may touch it.


One back is ALLOWED to break the waist of the snapper, if he has his hands in position to receive the ball if snapped between the snapper's legs, but he is not required to receive the snap.

Offline Jackhammer

  • *
  • Posts: 250
  • FAN REACTION: +14/-5
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2010, 11:58:31 AM »
One back is ALLOWED to break the waist of the snapper, if he has his hands in position to receive the ball if snapped between the snapper's legs, but he is not required to receive the snap.

Did you just swerve into something there?

Kill the darn play, blow the whistle and kill it....heck if you're crew wants to then talk about an IW...great you've still stopped this crap and y'all can drink beer afterwards
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline Atlanta Blue

  • *
  • Posts: 3781
  • FAN REACTION: +160/-71
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2010, 12:57:11 PM »
Did you just swerve into something there?

Kill the darn play, blow the whistle and kill it....heck if you're crew wants to then talk about an IW...great you've still stopped this crap and y'all can drink beer afterwards

I agree, it's USC, no doubt.  I'm just saying it's NOT illegal because the QB was breaking the waist of the snapper, he's allowed to.  It's illegal because of the unfair act.

Offline Jackhammer

  • *
  • Posts: 250
  • FAN REACTION: +14/-5
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2010, 03:04:15 PM »
I agree, it's USC, no doubt.  I'm just saying it's NOT illegal because the QB was breaking the waist of the snapper, he's allowed to.  It's illegal because of the unfair act.

AB,
I understood that, but based on what you quoted (and I didn't check that with the rule, just assuming you got it right) maybe we have an illegal formation, or an illegal snap since the QB didn't "get in position to receive the snap through the legs."

Screw it, I don't really care.....blow the thing dead.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

"The only thing black and white in officiating is the uniform"

Offline NoVaBJ

  • *
  • Posts: 128
  • FAN REACTION: +11/-8
Re: Fake penalty turns into TD, featured on TV
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2010, 10:25:19 AM »
It is USC as soon as the QB says "We're marking off another five yards."  It is also USC as soon as someone says "We have the wrong ball!" or "Where's the tee?"