Illegal Substitution ?

[TXMike]

I don't get it ?

[yt=425,350]maJpQsewk0M[/yt]

[HAshleyTX]

I see it...good call

[Kalle]

If I see the action correctly we have one substitute coming in and the wideout leaves the field. This isn't SUI but it can become a DOG when the U prevents team A from snapping the ball until team B has had time to respond - and it might be pretty long in this case.

[mishatx]

Two substitutes come in.  One of them then turns around and leaves.

[Kalle]

Ah yes, had a too small screen on the train. Good call (some might argue technicality as the fouling substitute comes only a few steps on the field and leaves immediately, but if this is college ball, the players should know better).

[TXMike]

I see it...good call

What do you see?

And if youi are going with Misha's explanation, doesn't the ball have to be snapped before that is a foul.  The action here would require a pretty tight definition of a sub becoming a player wouldn't it?

If it is a dead ball foul I assume he is saying they had 12 in the formation or "broke with 12".  Don't see that either.

[Kalle]

And if youi are going with Misha's explanation, doesn't the ball have to be snapped before that is a foul.  The action here would require a pretty tight definition of a sub becoming a player wouldn't it?

The substitute assumes a position in the offensive formation, thus he became a 12th player. And yes, you are right in saying that it should be a live ball foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The substitute assumes a position in the offensive formation, thus he became a 12th player. And yes, you are right in saying that it should be a live ball foul.

Don't agree that this should be a live ball foul.  From the time that the two A players step on the field until the flag flies is 5 seconds.  After the huddle is over and we've got team A in formation over the ball with the snap imminent, they get 3 seconds with 12 on the field, maybe 4.  I believe that the flag flew @ 5 seconds based on frame by frame review of the 2nd view on the video.  Subs are completely on the field at 30 secs, the substitute by the coach seems to take a WR position (maybe the coach was actually yelling for him to get his IDIOT off the field?), and the flag flies at 35 secs.  R could have called the guy who came in, appeared to take a position and then leave, but IMO he's calling A for having 12 for 5 seconds before anyone leaves.

IMO that's 100% correct since we've allways been told that if we have one or more very late subs, with 12 on the field for 5 or more secs, we want a DB blow & throw. 

[TXMike]

i hope you are not a back judge with a watch like that!  !   There was a max of 4 seconds from the time the 2 steopped on the field and the flag hit the ground meaning it was thrown way before 4 secs.  Way too technical for 12 in the formation.

As for the live - ball vs dead-ball, what we are saying is if the flag is for the player coming in and then leaving, that is a live ball foul.

[KB]

I think it happened like that:

R is counting O, from left to right. When he counted the moving player as eleven and the WR as twelve, he then observed the delay (more than three seconds) before the WR moved out. Since it looks awfully like a "reverse hide-out" (Making the defense cover a player who then leaves the field before the snap), he whistled it dead for 12.

Had the coach done the right thing and called a TO when he realized the mistake, then there should not have been a foul called.

[HAshleyTX]

What do you see?

And if youi are going with Misha's explanation, doesn't the ball have to be snapped before that is a foul.  The action here would require a pretty tight definition of a sub becoming a player wouldn't it?

If it is a dead ball foul I assume he is saying they had 12 in the formation or "broke with 12".  Don't see that either.

The snap is iminent and and I can see a "tight definition" senerio simply to avoid the possibility of illegal participation.  I think it was best to kill the play and give the illegal substitution.

[Chester]

The snap is iminent and and I can see a "tight definition" senerio simply to avoid the possibility of illegal participation.  I think it was best to kill the play and give the illegal substitution.

 

[Welpe]

The snap is iminent and and I can see a "tight definition" senerio simply to avoid the possibility of illegal participation.  I think it was best to kill the play and give the illegal substitution.

What about AR 9-1-5-V?

V. Team B, with 11 players on the field of play, is setting up its defense.
The ball is ready for play, and A13 is about to start calling snap
signals. Two seconds before the snap, B54 enters from the team area
to play defensive linebacker. Team B’s coach has sent B54 into the
game without realizing that he already has 11 players on the field.

RULING: Allow the ball to be snapped. Illegal participation on
Team B. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. (Note: This is not
a violation of Rule 3-5-2-c.)

[HAshleyTX]

All I'm saying is that I can see how the referee chose to go with the illegal sub.  There are several senerios with this and I can see more than one option.  What happened is the one I like the best.

[TXMike]

The snap is not imminent.  The QB seems cognizant of the mixup and is letting it clear itself up. 

[HAshleyTX]

I disagree.  The formation is set and QB is ready to the point that the subs come running onto the field.  Once again, I see a whole lot of judgement involved with this and I don't disagree with what the referee called.

[TXMike]

The QB being ready to go has no bearing.  He is in control and he realizes he has a problem that is being fixed.  When we talk about a snap being imminenet is is when the QB is either oblivious, or, more often, when he is trying to catch the defense in the middle of subbing.  That is when the snap is imminent.  I can tell we still need to beat some more of the federation out of you hoss.

[Atlanta Blue]

The snap is absolutely imminent.  The snapper had his hands on the ball, everyone in the formation had been set for one second, and the QB was in position to take the snap.  Whether he calls for it or not at that point is meaningless; imminent means impending, about to happen.  It sure was about to happen.

[TXMike]

Using that definition of imminent, a team would never be able to sub once the snapper was on the ball and the team was set.  I don't see the sub rules being that restrictive.  And since the real concern over not having a team get caught in an illegal participation situation is for the defense, I am going to let team A be the "masters of their domain" and prove they can control things enough to NOT have a foul.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Using that definition of imminent, a team would never be able to sub once the snapper was on the ball and the team was set.  I don't see the sub rules being that restrictive.  And since the real concern over not having a team get caught in an illegal participation situation is for the defense, I am going to let team A be the "masters of their domain" and prove they can control things enough to NOT have a foul.

SECTION 5. Substitutions / Legal Substitutions—ARTICLE 2 / Approved Ruling 3-5-2

III. A33, an incoming substitute, enters the huddle or assumes a position in a formation and (a) after approximately two seconds, A34 leaves the huddle and departs the field of play at his sideline, or (b) after approximately four seconds, A34 leaves the huddle and departs the field of play at his sideline. RULING: (a) Legal. (b) Foul. (Note: A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds is considered to have left immediately.)

This directly on-point AR pretty clearly says that the departing player has up to 3 seconds to be OK - 4 or more seconds is a foul.  I'm with Blue on this one, there ready and raring to go - my timing is letter of the law. 

[TXMike]

You need to clean the Snickers    goo out of your watch works there Mr Umpire as your timing of the events is off.  The R's flag hits the ground at 4 and it was thrown a good distance and high so had to be thrown pretty quickly, perhaps barely 3.  And are you seriously saying either one of the two incoming fellas truly "assumed a position in the formation"?  ?   Seems purty teknikal theyhair.

[MJT]

This call should not have been missed in our conference after the 8th memo we had stating that it is a DB ILS foul if a sub comes in and then leaves the field as the player did.

[TXMike]

What is the rule support for that memo?

[NVFOA_Ump]

This call should not have been missed in our conference after the 8th memo we had stating that it is a DB ILS foul if a sub comes in and then leaves the field as the player did.

As we've discussed in previous threads the "stay and play" requirement in 3-5-2-d is a live ball foul that's triggered by the snap.

d. Substitutes who become players must remain in the game for one play and replaced players must remain out of the game for one play, except during the interval between periods, after a score, or when a timeout is charged to a team or to the referee with the exception of a live-ball out of bounds or an incomplete forward pass (A.R. 3-5-2-VI) (live-ball foul) [S22].

[Diablo]

As we've discussed in previous threads the "stay and play" requirement in 3-5-2-d is a live ball foul that's triggered by the snap.

d. Substitutes who become players must remain in the game for one play and replaced players must remain out of the game for one play, except during the interval between periods, after a score, or when a timeout is charged to a team or to the referee with the exception of a live-ball out of bounds or an incomplete forward pass (A.R. 3-5-2-VI) (live-ball foul) [S22].

I sense that a significant number of NCAA officials believe 3-2-5-d infractions should be enforced as a dead-ball foul.  And presently, there is a bit of confussion regarding penalty enforcement for all infractions listed in 3-5-2.

Evidence:   Play #9 in 2010 NCAA Bulletin #3
9.  The ball is dead following a play that resulted in a first down at the B-40.  Eleven
players of Team A, which runs a no-huddle offense, are going to their various spread-
offense positions in preparation for the next play.  The ball is ready for play when
A22 runs onto the field from his team area, and after he passes the top of the
numbers, he or the coaching staff apparently realizes that he is the 12th player.  He
then turns and runs back to his team area.  The ball has not been snapped.
 RULING: Dead-ball foul for a substitution infraction.  By interpretation A22 has
become a player by entering his team’s “effective huddle” and thus must remain in
the game for one play.  Five-yard penalty.  Team A will have first and 15 at the B-45.
(2-27-9-b, 3-5-2-d)

When questioned about his Ruling in this bulletin play versus the wording of 3-5-2-d in the rule book, Dr. Redding acknowledged the discrepancy, but indicated that he planned to review and possibly edit all the passages in 3-5-2.