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Author Topic: Play not blown dead  (Read 19383 times)

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Offline brownie

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Play not blown dead
« on: November 15, 2010, 11:46:49 PM »
On the weekend we had a flag dropped by an inexperienced line judge for Team A not being set for a second, but he didn't blow it dead. Then during the play we had a team B foul. We decided that as the play should never have gotten off we would treat it as if it didn't and just assess the infraction for not being set.

After the game we decided that what we did was wrong and that we should have offset the penalties and replayed the down.

Now as it's a stuff up I'm assuming there's no by the book way to handle it, other than making sure next time the whistle is blown, but just looking for feedback on how people feel it should have been handled.Thanks
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Offline biltheref

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 12:13:59 AM »
Why should he have blown it dead?  I think you have a foul at the snap for illegal shift.  Foul by B during the play creates a double foul situation.  Replay the down.
 ^no
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LarryW60

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 12:17:10 AM »
Biltheref is correct. An illegal shift is a foul at the snap so you don't kill it.  This should have been offsetting fouls.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 02:36:59 AM »
Although it would not have been the case in this play as both fouls were live ball ones, if you had a false start that was not blown dead initially:
 ignore simple team B fouls but enforce major ones as dead ball fouls even tho they seemed live when it happened.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:22:43 AM by TXMike »
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LarryW60

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 07:10:43 AM »
LolWut?
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Grant - AR

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 08:34:27 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 16, 2010, 02:36:59 AM
Although it would not have been the case in this play as both fouls were live ball ones, if you had a false start that was not blown dead initially:
 ignore simple team B fouls but enforce major ones as dead ball fouls even tho they seemed live when it happened.

 yEs:

Give that man a  sNiCkErS
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 06:40:44 PM »
When does the ball become live - when it is spotted or at the snap ?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 06:42:13 PM »
When is is LEGALLY snapped or LEGALLY free kicked.
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 06:53:05 PM »
being picky here but - ergo shouldn't a false start be a dead ball foul ?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 06:53:59 PM »
It is.  What is your issue?
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 07:00:21 PM »
What about illegal shift ?

No issue Mike - just clarifying for my own education.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:03:51 PM by Aussie-Zebra »
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 07:01:48 PM »
Quote from: Aussie-Zebra on November 16, 2010, 07:00:21 PM
What about illegal shift ?

Live ball foul
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 07:04:54 PM »
Thankyou
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Offline TxBJ

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 07:26:46 PM »
Quote from: Aussie-Zebra on November 16, 2010, 07:00:21 PM
What about illegal shift ?

Players could always get set up until the snap, so it is not a foul until the ball is snapped.  Therefore live ball foul.
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 07:32:24 PM »
Ah now that makes sense. I can stop scratching my head now.
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Offline brownie

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 07:48:28 PM »
Thanks all, the live ball dead ball logic is exactly what I was looking to to clear up when things should/shouldn't be blown dead on the line,  and thanks TXmike for the guide lines on what we should do if it is something that should have been blown dead. I knew we'd made a meal of it but we manged to add an extra layer on top of that.
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tow

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 09:16:03 PM »
The way I try to remember if it should be blown dead is to ask the question,"Is there something the a player may do to make himself legal, ie,get set for a second,wait til both are set for a second,then go in motion,etc, If they can do something to make it legal,let play go,if you blow it dead,you have robbed them of the opportunity to do so.
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Offline With_Two_Flakes

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 10:55:45 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l621ZZ7t08

Here's an example of a live ball foul. Since they never actually snap it, it isn't a foul.

Two guys on the visiting team's offense forget who should be the motion man and both go in motion. Their movement was not deemed by me to be jerky enough to be a False Start. Eventually the QB asks me for a T/Out so he can sort his offense out.

This play totally confused a couple of blow-hards in the crowd and (you can just see) also one or two folks on the home team sideline.

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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 11:07:56 PM »
However did they beat Sweden ?
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 06:08:47 AM »
The loud mouth does not sound like a Brit (but I am sure glad he has taken his football "intelligence" over to your side of the pond)     
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KB

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2010, 07:23:20 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 17, 2010, 06:08:47 AM
The loud mouth does not sound like a Brit (but I am sure glad he has taken his football "intelligence" over to your side of the pond)     

But seemingly there is an unlimited supply of said "intelligence" all over the world :)

What did the great Albert say?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former"
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Offline With_Two_Flakes

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2010, 12:45:38 PM »
Quote from: Aussie-Zebra on November 16, 2010, 11:07:56 PM
However did they beat Sweden ?
Well this is a game between two teams in our 2nd tier.
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Offline Aussie-Zebra

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2010, 02:17:23 PM »
You have that many teams ? :o
I suppose you do have a lot of US servicemen.



Sorry Brownie if where hijacking your thread but I assume its run iys courser.
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Offline With_Two_Flakes

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 08:57:02 AM »
About 50 Senior teams (Adult Rec to our American cousins) split into 3 divisions.
Also have about 25 Youth Rec (19 year old or younger) teams.

End of the Cold War means that most US military bases in the UK closed long ago. Nothing like the numbers of US airforce folks here nowadays. I'd bet there aren't more than 30 US military personnel playing in the entire league.
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The Ref Thats Lef

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Re: Play not blown dead
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2010, 12:04:52 PM »
And another 40-50 teams in our college league.

http://buafl.net//university.aspx
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