Team A foul assessed from the end of the run or spot with no loss of down

[brownie]

To help me with the correct application of a foul I try to get an understanding of the logic behind it however I just can't get it right in my head for fouls against team A that are assessed at the end of the run or the spot that don't include a loss of down.
 
To my way of thinking anything against A from the end of run/spot should also be a loss of down as A gets the advantage of having the penalty assessed downfield so the should lose the down they used to get those yards or they could keep the down and have it assessed from the previous spot.
 
The replies to my last post helped set me straight on the logic for blowing a foul dead or not so I though I see if anyone can give a similar chestnut of logic that would dictate why an illegal forward pass is from the spot and a loss of down but holding is from the spot but no loss of down? Or at least I think they are.
 
Thanks

[Etref]

The most basic answer to your question is BY RULE

The rule book dictates where and how the penalty for the foul is assesses and only very few include "loss of down" (which is actually, the loss of right to replay the down).

[JasonTX]

Imagine a run from the 50 yard line to the 10 yard line.  A holding foul is flagged at the 20.  Not much fairness in bringing the ball back to the previous spot considering they made it to the 20 legally.  Anything beyond that spot was gained illegally. 

[HLinNC]

A gains the benefit of any yardage legally gained.

As for loss of down fouls, you're just going to have to read the rule book and compartmentalize the LOD fouls just like we do the Auto First down fouls.

Try reading Fundamental X: Penalty Measurement and Section 10-4 Basic Spots and 10-6 Enforcement Spots with the accompanying graphics.

[brownie]

Imagine a run from the 50 yard line to the 10 yard line.  A holding foul is flagged at the 20.  Not much fairness in bringing the ball back to the previous spot considering they made it to the 20 legally.  Anything beyond that spot was gained illegally. 

I wasn't suggesting they couldn't have the yards but it's just they used a down to get those yards so I can't see why we would give them the extra benefit of getting to use that down again. It could well be the rule makers just wanted to give team A a bit of a leg up on these sort of calls to help get more 1st downs.

As I said it's just from a logic view point that it just doesn't seem right but I'm sure there's plenty more examples of things like that, and as pointed out it's just something you need to learned off by heart which is what I'll aim to do.

Thanks all for your assistance and patience.

[KB]

Look at it like that: when the foul (say, holding) happens 5 yards back from the LTG on a 2nd and 10, a legally gained 3rd and 5 becomes a 2nd and 15, at the choice of the offended team. 2nd and 15 is a lot and often kills the drive.
Most penalties where replaying the down actually happens leave the fouling team in a worse spot than they were at before the down in which they fouled.

[brownie]

Thanks KB that was the bit I wasn't factoring in. B gets the choice to decline the foul and let them use the down and stay at the spot if it's better for them to do that.
Appreciate your help.

[lawdog]

To me an even worse penalty/down situation is for example a 1st and 10 and A21 runs 3 yards and gets a five yard mask from B76 at the end of the run.  What does that leave you with after enforcement and how does it make sense???

[JasonTX]

To me an even worse penalty/down situation is for example a 1st and 10 and A21 runs 3 yards and gets a five yard mask from B76 at the end of the run.  What does that leave you with after enforcement and how does it make sense???

You still have 5 yard facemask fouls in Fed? 

[AlUpstateNY]

To me an even worse penalty/down situation is for example a 1st and 10 and A21 runs 3 yards and gets a five yard mask from B76 at the end of the run.  What does that leave you with after enforcement and how does it make sense???

It leaves the offense with a choice;  which is more to their advantage take the 5 yard penalty AND replay the down.  I think the purpose of the penalty is to deter B from going anyway near the face mask.  You might recall that the stated purpose for instituting the 5 yard version of the facemask foul, was because NFHS felt that too many "lesser" contacts with the mask were being ignored because the 15 yard penalty was considered too harsh.  It was hoped the 5 yard version would help eliminate minor interactions with the face mask.

[bama_stripes]

To me an even worse penalty/down situation is for example a 1st and 10 and A21 runs 3 yards and gets a five yard mask from B76 at the end of the run.  What does that leave you with after enforcement and how does it make sense???

1st and 2, if my math is correct.  If B doesn't foul, it's 2nd and 7.

MORAL:  Don't get caught with your hand in the cage.

[lawdog]

1st and 2, if my math is correct.  If B doesn't foul, it's 2nd and 7.

MORAL:  Don't get caught with your hand in the cage.

Ya but here is what I don't get.  Why not make it 1st and 5 or 2nd and 2?  You either give them the down back or you let them use their down and keep their yards.  Here you are giving them the yards they gained on first down, adding on the penalty and then even though they ran first down already and kept the yards they gained on it, you aren't making it second you are giving them first again, WHY?  Its too much of a penalty.  AND it has nothing to do with the five yard mask, I'm talking about any play that doesn't get you the first down yardage.  Change it to 2 and 19 with a 6 yard run and a 10 yard D holding.  3rd and 3?  Sure! 2 and 3?  WOW...

[Kalle]

The answer to the question of "why" is: because

The football rules are basically arbitrary (as are all sports rules). The rules could just as well say that there is no right to repeat the down when there is a penalty.

"Anatomy of a game" might have some insight as to why this is as it is.

[110]

Ya but here is what I don't get.  Why not make it 1st and 5 or 2nd and 2?  You either give them the down back or you let them use their down and keep their yards.  Here you are giving them the yards they gained on first down, adding on the penalty and then even though they ran first down already and kept the yards they gained on it, you aren't making it second you are giving them first again, WHY?  Its too much of a penalty.  AND it has nothing to do with the five yard mask, I'm talking about any play that doesn't get you the first down yardage.  Change it to 2 and 19 with a 6 yard run and a 10 yard D holding.  3rd and 3?  Sure! 2 and 3?  WOW...

Your idea, if I understanding it correctly, is already in use up here.

In Canadian application, if yards are gained (a first down is made), the application point shifts to the point the ball is held. Hence if

A is 2nd/6 at the B 46
A 15 runs for 16 yards, but
a 76 holds when the ball was at the B 38 (eight yards downfield from LOS)

The penalty application would be L10 from B38, ball 1d/10 at B48.

Or B could decline and let A have 1/d10 at the b30.

Something to think about if/when you watch our Grey Cup (Pro title game.)