Texas guys, I have a question...

[GAHSUMPIRE]

I am not sure if this was explained in previous posts or not, so forgive me if I am repeating an old discussion. I am all for everyone making as much money as they can, but I just don't understand the rationale behind paying game officials based on the number of people in the stands.

To me, that seems like it would create a rather large conflict of interest- or at least the appearance of one. Especially in a situation where the coach picks the crew. Why should official's compensation be determined by something over which they have- and should have- absolutely no control- or concern.

The field is still 100 yards, a touchdown is still 6 points, and the distance marked off for penalties is still the same regardless of how many cheer for the score or boo your call when you throw a flag on their team.

You do- or should do- the same outstanding job regardless of the number of fans in the stands. Why should you be paid more if a lot of people show up? Or more importantly, less if no one does. The people (how ever many show up) aren't there to see the officials, they are there to see the the teams.

I realize that there is much more pressure involved when there are that many eyes on the field, but the official had no role in putting them there, why should they be compensated for it?

I do agree that there should be a different payscale for playoff games - and I could understand a different level of pay for "big" regular season games (games that decide playoff position, etc., as those, in effect, are playoff games), what I am having trouble with is the way that compensation is calculated.

Please realize I am not trying to upset or insult anyone in Texas, I am looking for information. As I said, I am all for you all making as much money as you can. I just don't understand how that compensation formula came into being, or why.

[TXMike]

Can't answer how it came about but put me down as one who does not care for current system.  It can and does  create issues.

[JasonTX]

I am in no way in this for the money.  But... I think every official across the USA is underpaid for the ammount of work we put into this.  Texas is at least attempting to pay us a little better.  To be honest though, if you look at all the games combined the majority of the games were we receive the minimum ammount of $45.00 for a varsity game.   As I understand it, that is a good bit below the national average.  The big games do pay good, but why not?  Are officials in any state not worth that much?

[whosyourdaddy]

I didn't realize the minimum for Varsity games is $45, I've never received that low of a check for the Varsity level.  That is what most districts are paying for JV in the DFW area. 

With high school football as big as it is here paying the officials according to gate seems to be quite in line with all the other big $$ expenditures.  Allen, which has a very successful football program is in the midst of building a 2 level horseshoe shaped stadium for $65 million which will seat 18,000.  As the saying goes everything is Big in Texas.

[TexDoc]

My average pay this season is just at $120 per varsity game.  If we could negotiate regular season pay at $120 to $130 a game, I think a flat fee would work.  The problem is, the schools would balk at it.  The ones that don't get anyone in the stands want to pay their $60, or lower.  The ones that are raking it in at the gates don't mind too much that they pay more.  It all really averages out and is beneficial to the schools and good for the officials.  I see no way the gate percentage method could create a conflict of interest.  The schools, coaches, officials and governing body all know the scale, so there is nothing hidden.  I believe if we went to a flat fee, the schools would want to pay a ridiculous fee, $75 maybe, instead of a reasonable fee.

There are some officials I know that traveled several hours one way, almost to the Mexico border, to officiate a game for which they received $45.  That's not even worth the time.  So the minimum pay really needs to be looked at.  But this same school would balk at having to pay more than $45 on a flat scale.

I guess it all boils down to what would be an acceptable flat fee that the schools and officials could agree upon.  When you're officiating a game where there are 100 people in the stands, $45 is agreeable to schools, but barely worth the officials' time.  These games need to be going to less experienced officials.  But on the other hand, when you're doing a game where there are 20,000 people in the stands, why is $175 or more unfair for each official?

[TxGrayhat]

I wouldn't mind a flat fee, plus full mileage for 2 (and $10 rider for non drivers) and $15 meals on all Varsity Contest and meals for Sub-varsity if the official travels over 50 miles.

[blindref757]

The philosophy is that as the number of people in the stands increase, so does the pressure and therefore, proper compensation is afforded to the refs that are capable of working in that situation.  It is a system that rewards experience.  You must pay your dues in Texas for the most part.  A few guys are born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple...but that is rare.  Most of the time, if you are on a crew that works for big checks, you have earned the right to be there.  Most guys understand that early...but it does create problems at times.  The biggest problem we deal with is that there is no accountability to the schools to pay you correctly.  We don't count the money, so if there is 8000 people there, we don't know if they took in 10K or 25K--often we get the shaft!

[HLinNC]

The biggest problem we deal with is that there is no accountability to the schools to pay you correctly.  We don't count the money, so if there is 8000 people there, we don't know if they took in 10K or 25K--often we get the shaft!

I would have thought with as strong an officials organization as Texas appears to have, that issue would have been dealt with.  Sounds as if you need an auditing system.  What does a crew do when a good estimate would indicate 10K at a game and you get a check for $75.

So basically the schools are like the Dr. Pepper commercials:  "Trust me, I'm a Doctor of Education" ?

[ballhog]

While we can gain access to the information through a request to release public information we generally choose to take the money and grumble. Most districts are fair and some probably overpay a bit. There are games that I could count the stands before the National Anthem and still received a $75 check before travel.

[TexDoc]

I would have thought with as strong an officials organization as Texas appears to have, that issue would have been dealt with.  Sounds as if you need an auditing system.  What does a crew do when a good estimate would indicate 10K at a game and you get a check for $75.

So basically the schools are like the Dr. Pepper commercials:  "Trust me, I'm a Doctor of Education" ?

When you start creating waves over this issue, the coaches start to remember this and have the right to scratch you.  Sometimes it is better to just take what they give you.  The ironic thing about this is, the UIL supposedly pushed the issue of taking over officiating over 1204 issues (the section of their bylaws that deals with officials and pay).  Many schools violate 1204 all the time, and the UIL seems to just look the other way.

[tow]

 I have no bone in this argument,but I have always felt that the smaller class schools have put in just as much time and work as the "big-game" schools,and thus are entitled to just as good of quality of officiating.  Do not see any merit in the argument that a more experienced official is more qualified to work a game just because there are more people in the stands.Been assigned to some so called big games that have been terrible,while some of the games between the percieved have nots have been great games

[GAHSUMPIRE]

When you start creating waves over this issue, the coaches start to remember this and have the right to scratch you.  Sometimes it is better to just take what they give you. 

That is where I think the conflict of interest comes in. Since coaches have the ability to not only decide who will call their games, but also it seems how much to pay them to do it, the officials look to be at the mercy of coaches. Would that not create the opportunity for some officials to at least give the benefit of the doubt to that coach's team in order to keep the contract with the school, and, perhaps, increase their pay for that and future games?

I am not saying that this does happen, only that there is the appearance that it could.

[TxGrayhat]

Selection of crews are pretty much a popularity/ name recognition thing usually determined by the R's name. Since schools draft the officials they want. The 5a schools typically higher grossing games get first choice of available crews when they have completed thier selections then the 4a schools get to choose and so forth. As the selections move to the lower classifications they pay normally goes down . Crews with less name recognition have a harder time making it to the higher paying games.  They just have to wait untill some coach decides to go with a crew they haven't heard of or seen.

[blindref757]

I have no bone in this argument,but I have always felt that the smaller class schools have put in just as much time and work as the "big-game" schools,and thus are entitled to just as good of quality of officiating.  Do not see any merit in the argument that a more experienced official is more qualified to work a game just because there are more people in the stands.Been assigned to some so called big games that have been terrible,while some of the games between the percieved have nots have been great games

You are correct that the effort in preparation is probably equal.  However, the football is not equal.  More speed, more talent, and better players make a better game--and better refs are needed.  If not, they'd just put rookies in the NFL right? 

Besides, the guys working the 2A games aren't dogmeat.  They are usually pretty good refs who are busting their butts to move up the ladder.  Some of the schools in the smaller classifications hate using the "big dogs" because their philosophies are so much different from what they see normally on a typical Friday night.

Most coaches want to move up to bigger schools because they have to teach less and do more coaching for more money.  They understand that the better refs are at the higher levels and the system works with very little "back scratching".  It would be totally naive to think that there aren't a few "brother in law" deals being made, but by and large, it works.

[Arbitrator]

 

If the flat-fees were made amenable to the travel and the gate criteria that is supposed laid out in UIL 1204, then that would be one thing. If they want flat fee, then I would advocate that they add up the certified gate receipts from all UIL regular-season games as well as the mileages paid out and use those figures in the tabulation of a flat fee. For playoff games, bi-district should start out at least 25% more, and it should go up exponentially at that rate with each ensuing round of playoff games. Meals and lodging should be tack ons based on the length of travel necessitated. In addition, there should be some assurances that the school didstricts will provide adequate facilities in which to dress with hot running water.

I don't really think that the majority of Texas officials are so entrenched in the gate fee that they wouldn't want to negotiate a fair flat fee. But the school districts as well as the UIL should try to show good faith in following 1204 itself. Some of these districts are absolute masters at hoarding and hiding their gate receipts. As it is, if a given school district doesn't want to follow the 1204 precepts, they simply tell the officials, "well, that's all you're going to get and it isn't our policy to pay for hotels or meals." And to boot, few, if any of them, will ever pony up gate receipt reports unless you actually threaten to get a lawyer involved. A lot of them will even laugh at you if you threaten to take the matter to the UIL. And in one incident in my career, the UIL even refused to get itself involved by just telling the officials and the chapter to "just work it out with the school district!"


So before we go to any proposed flat fee format, let's try to stringently attempt to follow  what is already in black and white in the existing 1204. Once the UIL and its school districts  have demonstrated a remarkable track record in following that, then we can sit down with them and negotiate exactly what a fair flat fee structure would be!   

[Etref]

Why are we even discussing this at this time? We still have a ruling to await on the future of TASO.

[fleetofoot]

Exactly, and that ruling may come to late for most of us if it is not done by tomorrow.

[WABill]

Exactly, and that ruling may come to late for most of us if it is not done by tomorrow.

Its never too late.  Don't be fooled by artificial deadlines.  The arbitrary ones are very easy to arbitrarily move.

[allen]

I never realized the difference in checks were so much that anyone would compromise their morals to change ANYTHING about the way they called that game.

Maybe my 4a games were bad compared to my 1a or 2a games, but I want to say that difference in my checks were about $5.

Does any one REALLY call high school football for the money, anyway?

However, I think that any time a coach gets to pick his crew, there should be a certain level of concern over obligation.  It's a horrible system.

[Etref]

Usually unless it is a big city school ( not inner city), there is not much difference in the amount officials are paid. Some small schools pack them in much better than some 4A/5A schools.

Inner city schools (4A/5A) are lucky to have more than a minimum gate on most occasions.

[fleetofoot]

I have had some inner city games where you could go up into the stands and shake hands with everyone between the flip and kickoff and not delay the start of the game.

[Etref]

I have had some inner city games where you could go up into the stands and shake hands with everyone between the flip and kickoff and not delay the start of the game.

I think we had that game together

[TexDoc]

I have had some inner city games where you could go up into the stands and shake hands with everyone between the flip and kickoff and not delay the start of the game.

I've worked in the Austin and San Antonio Chapters, and this statement is true for both.