Offsetting fouls exception ?

[slasc]

Hi,

KO on A's 30. A30 is offside at kick. While B24 returns, B50 commits a block in the back on B40. End of the run at the B30, when B24 is tackled.

I ruled 2 live ball fouls, offsetting fouls and re-kick.

Does the 10.1.4.1 exception apply inthis case. Do we consider a change of possession in this case ?

Thank you !

[Kalle]

Any time there is a change of team possession during the down the 10.1.4.1 exception may apply. Team A is in team possession at the start so there is a COP.

[NCAA-SJ]

Yes...to keep the game moving (preventing another KO), we would like for B to decline A's foul, and accept their penalty to put the ball in play on the B20yd line.  Not sure if they'd be pleased with this outcome, but we all we can do is ask. 

Note: if B's foul occurred 'during' the kick (and not the runback), then you automatically have an offset.

[Locker Room]

With the free kick being from the 30 and the receiving team getting the ball on their 20 after penalty enforcement if they decline offsetting fouls, it is likely that the receiving team will accept offsetting fouls and there will be a rekick from the 30.  Most of the time the kicoff is returned beyond the receiver's 20.

[Diablo]

Yes...to keep the game moving (preventing another KO), we would like for B to decline A's foul, and accept their penalty to put the ball in play on the B20yd line. 

Not sure about that statement.
How does Team B get the option to decline A's foul/penalty?  Also, how does Team B have the option to accept the penalty for their own foul?
What do the rules say?

[mccormicw]

10-1-4 Exception:  When there is a change of team possession during a down, and the team last gaining possession had not fouled before last gaining possession, it may decline offsetting fouls and thereby retain possession after completion of the penalty for it foul (AR 10-1-4-I-VIII)

[NCAA-SJ]

Yes...what he said.

[Osric Pureheart]

Also, how does Team B have the option to accept the penalty for their own foul?

Perhaps not accurate from a rules perspective, but it's a reasonable description of what they're doing, cos there's no reason that the other team is going to say "nah, keep the ten yards, we don't really want them".

[Kalle]

Perhaps not accurate from a rules perspective, but it's a reasonable description of what they're doing, cos there's no reason that the other team is going to say "nah, keep the ten yards, we don't really want them".

Normally, yes, and the exception to this is?

[Osric Pureheart]

Well, that's actually a very interesting question.  Let's add "time expires during the down" to the situation, and add the caveat that the speaking captains both happen to know the rule about when you offer options, the captain's first choice is irrevocable.

How should the R present the options to the captains?  We've got four possible combinations here:

Both teams accept the penalties; rekick from A's 30 and extend the period.
Team B declines, Team A accepts; B's ball at their 20, 1st and 10, extend the period.
Team A declines, Team B accepts; Either rekick from A's 25 or B's ball, 1st and 10 at their 35, extend the period.
Both teams decline; The period is over, restart either with B's ball 1st and 10 at their 30, the second-half kickoff, or from the succeeding spot to begin extra periods.

Here's a possible trap.  R starts explaining the options.  Team A's captain says "yeah, we'll decline the BIB" and runs away.  Team B's captain says "OK, we'll accept the offside, then".  What do you do now?

[Atlanta Blue]

B has to choose first.  A doesn't get a chance to accept or decline until B has chosen.

If B chooses to accept, offsetting fouls.  If B chooses to decline, the BIB is enforced unless (for some reason such as end of the half), A then declines.

[Diablo]

How should the R present the options to the captains?  We've got four possible combinations here:

Both teams accept the penalties; rekick from A's 30 and extend the period.
Team B declines, Team A accepts; B's ball at their 20, 1st and 10, extend the period.
Team A declines, Team B accepts; Either rekick from A's 25 or B's ball, 1st and 10 at their 35, extend the period.
Both teams decline; The period is over, restart either with B's ball 1st and 10 at their 30, the second-half kickoff, or from the succeeding spot to begin extra periods.

Here's a possible trap.  R starts explaining the options.  Team A's captain says "yeah, we'll decline the BIB" and runs away.  Team B's captain says "OK, we'll accept the offside, then".  What do you do now?

The above morass illustrates why using the proper language is important for teaching, learning and administering this rule. 

By rule, Team B does NOT have the option to accept or decline the penalty for Team A's foul.  By rule, the only option Team B has is to accept or decline offsetting fouls.  If Team B accepts offsetting fouls, the down will be replay and Team A does NOT have an option to accept or decline the penalty for Team B's foul.  If Team B declines offsetting fouls, Team A will have the option to accept or decline the penalty for Team B's foul and Team B will not have the option to accept the penalty for Team A's foul.

And, yes, there are viable, but rare, situations in which Team B would decline offsetting fouls, followed by Team A declining the penalty for Team B's foul, thus erasing all fouls and penalty enforcements.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Make Team B aware that if they decline A's penalty then Team A will have the option to decline theirs and the period will be over.

This is where an extra few seconds explaining something ahead of time can save a lot of trouble.

[zebra99]

another question/issue - under what circumstances do we communicate the options to the coaches and by pass the captains to avoid a potential obvious screw up?  Is, should there be, a difference between high school and college?

I have my opinion but I no longer work at the high school level.  And, this should stir up the Hatfields (by the rule book) and the McCoys (manage the contest)!

[JasonTX]

another question/issue - under what circumstances do we communicate the options to the coaches and by pass the captains to avoid a potential obvious screw up?  Is, should there be, a difference between high school and college?

I have my opinion but I no longer work at the high school level.  And, this should stir up the Hatfields (by the rule book) and the McCoys (manage the contest)!

The coach is the one who will be making the choice because that is who the captain is looking to.  I would have the wings explain to the coaches what the options are.  I wouldn't have any problem going over there if I need to at the high school level if the wings couldn't get it explained.

[Atlanta Blue]

I wouldn't have any problem going over there if I need to at the high school level if the wings couldn't get it explained.

Under current NFHS rules, you cannot do this.  Coaches are not consulted, you can only talk to the captains.

In reality, it's a stupid rule that is ignored often, and should be changed.


 

[Curious]

Under current NFHS rules, you cannot do this.  Coaches are not consulted, you can only talk to the captains.

In reality, it's a stupid rule that is ignored often, and should be changed.

So "stupid" that it IS virtually ignored - especially when penalty enforcement is complicated.  I doubt that any coach would "object" to being given the opportunity to accept or decline in such cases.

[Locker Room]

Some officials working under NCAA rules would benefit by reading, at least once, the post by Diablo on December 15th at 12:52:23.  His explanation also applies when Team B's foul is a postscrimmage kick foul.  See 10-1-4 Exceptions 1 and 2 starting on FR-133.

[Atlanta Blue]

So "stupid" that it IS virtually ignored - especially when penalty enforcement is complicated.  I doubt that any coach would "object" to being given the opportunity to accept or decline in such cases.

No, but they'll object to the OTHER coach being able to do so!   

It may be the most ignored rule in the book.  Toss it as well as "the team scored upon gets to decide whether they will kick off or receive".  When was the last time a team scored upon requested to kick off?  And how many officials would know they even have the choice?

[Diablo]

Toss it as well as "the team scored upon gets to decide whether they will kick off or receive".  When was the last time a team scored upon requested to kick off?  And how many officials would know they even have the choice?

That dinosaur was purged from the NCAA rule book a while ago.

[NCAA-SJ]

Also...is the rule about 'intentional' pass interference still in NFHS?  Where you can penalize 30yds?  Who in the world EVER called that one?  And who in the world EVER voted to put in the book to begin with?

[Boodle]

The Intentional Pass Interference rule IS still in the NFHS rule book.  Never heard of it actually being called.

[NVFOA_Ump]

........ And who in the world EVER voted to put in the book to begin with?

Probably the rules officials who felt that an intentional tackle 45 yards downfield just before the pass receiver was about to catch a TD pass deserved more that 15 yards.