"Re-Measurement"

[TXMike]

A play on RG's site:  http://www.romgilbert.us/vidclip17.htm

Very strange sequence
[yt=425,350]C0hwR5qzfDk[/yt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0hwR5qzfDk

[NVFOA_Ump]

I believe what happened here is that although the play was on the near sideline outside the hash, the official who actually had the FP spot was across the field and no one on the near side had a good spot.  They tossed him the ball for the measurement since he had the spot, and then realized that it should be relocated back to the near side hash since that would be the correct DB spot.

[TXMike]

Wouldn't it have been better for the near side official (L) to get a cross field spot from the H and then measure at the L's "spot"?

[RedTD]

It appears they brought the ball clear across the field - evidently at the "soft spot" by the H  outside the inbounds marker. However when they brought the chains in to spot the ball at the inbounds they left it at that side of the field. Then decided to bring it back to the "correct" inbounds line. Can't say as I have ever seen this done. I would not recommend it as a good way to use "soft spots".  

[Osric Pureheart]

This is the question I was going to ask; is it better to do a measure on the opposite side of the field if the far wingman needs to give an exact crossfield spot, or do we bring him all the way across the field to put the ball down in its usual place?
 
IMO the issue with taking the ball to the L and having him spot it off the H is, how can you be sure he'll get the ball in the right place?  Ordinarily not a problem, but it certainly is when it's that close to being a first down...

edited for another thought: having L spot it may mean nobody notices it was a crossfield spot, but is this a case where we have to sacrifice looking perfect to be sure that the ball's in the right place?

and another: now we need to have a measurement with the H all the way across the other side of the field.  Anyone want to make the H rack up 200 yards going across the field to spot the ball, then back to get the chain, then again to bring it over, and then back again to reset it on the sideline?  Or are we gonna play nice and let S bring it over the first time?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Wouldn't it have been better for the near side official (L) to get a cross field spot from the H and then measure at the L's "spot"?

Maybe, but that would not have looked very good either.  The L was way out of the play (you can see him trailing very late), and was no where near the FP spot.  Not sure that there was any option other than what they did here, except they should have brought the ball back to the correct spot.

[zebra99]

IMO: The ball should be placed at the foot of the official who rules the play dead.  If cross field mechanics are used, at best, it's no more than an educated guess by the official on the far side.  It's cosmetically awkward to run the ball all the way across the field to the HL who would be near his sideline, measure, than bring it all the way back to the correct hash mark when in reality, it's no more accurate than the covering official using his partner then putting the ball down at his feet.  

Let's not complicate things.  On this play, my LJ takes the spot from the HL and puts the ball right down.  If we measure, we bring the chains across the field to that spot.  Short and simple.  Again, spotting the ball, whether it's the covering official's own spot or one he got from across the field, is not scientific.

[zebra99]

Wouldn't it have been better for the near side official (L) to get a cross field spot from the H and then measure at the L's "spot"?

absolutely!

[110]

IMO: The ball should be placed at the foot of the official who rules the play dead.

We have a winner.

[Etref]

Very odd...............

[harrell12]

Anyone else notice that while the chains are being stretched to see if it's a first down, the R is talking to someone on the white teams sideline?  It looks as if one of the officials gets his attention to have him see if it's a first or not.  Maybe not a big deal but looks odd.

[Mark uk]

To me the only fault is that they didn't get to the correct hash mark first time.

[TXMike]

Mark
This is a great place for officials new to the specific code to get "up to speed."  There are a few folks who hang around here who's views you will do well to consider when making your decision about what is "right" or "correct".  One of those is Zebra 99.  You can take his stuff to the bank (except for his unfortuante view on unneccessary roughness and hight hits  ;-)   )

[Atlanta Blue]

We had a strange (and poor) mechanic in one of our playoff games.  Play ends near the LTG in the side zone.  LJ marks the spot, tosses the ball to the U who puts it down on the hash, and NOW the R calls for a measurement.

I understand that the exact spot is a bit of an approximation anyway, certainly no more accurate than a matter of inches.  But to move the ball from the spot where it ended, and then to add the next approximation of the U placing it on the exact same line as the LJ makes a measurement here a total coin flip.

At least in the above video, they used the chains to get the ball to the correct hash.  I was afraid when i saw thw title, that they measured it at one point, moved it to the hash, and measured it again, now getting a first down.

Which doesn't top two I saw in Georgia Tech games with ACC crews:

1.  Kickoff for a touchback, ball placed on 20.  Tech runs for 10 yards, R calls for a measurement.  If the ball (and the chains) were correctly placed after the touchback, the front edge of the 30 yard line is all you need for the measurement.


But worse (different game):

Tech has the ball 1st and 10.  Wake Forest (defense) jumps offside.  5 yard penalty.  After lining up for 1st and 5, Wake jumps offside again.  U marks off 5 yards, and, yep, you guessed it, here it comes, R calls for a measurement!  It was a first down by about half the length of the football.

[Grant - AR]

Tech has the ball 1st and 10.  Wake Forest (defense) jumps offside.  5 yard penalty.  After lining up for 1st and 5, Wake jumps offside again.  U marks off 5 yards, and, yep, you guessed it, here it comes, R calls for a measurement!  It was a first down by about half the length of the football.

Huh?!?   

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMO: The ball should be placed at the foot of the official who rules the play dead.  If cross field mechanics are used, at best, it's no more than an educated guess by the official on the far side.  It's cosmetically awkward to run the ball all the way across the field to the HL who would be near his sideline, measure, than bring it all the way back to the correct hash mark when in reality, it's no more accurate than the covering official using his partner then putting the ball down at his feet.  

Let's not complicate things.  On this play, my LJ takes the spot from the HL and puts the ball right down.  If we measure, we bring the chains across the field to that spot.  Short and simple.  Again, spotting the ball, whether it's the covering official's own spot or one he got from across the field, is not scientific.

So who do we think "ruled the play dead" here?  The L is so far away he's in another county, and doesn't get anywhere near the play.  Isn't he probably the one who sends the ball across the field to the only real spot that anyone has?  Not sure that when I'm 10-15 yards behind the end of the play, committed to getting the FP of the QB who's about to be sacked, that I'd want a TV audience watching them measure to my spot that I got to long after the play was over.  It's one thing to take a soft spot when your close to the spot that's directly across the field from you but in this case IMO it would be one tough sell.

[RedTD]

So who do we think "ruled the play dead" here?  The L is so far away he's in another county, and doesn't get anywhere near the play.  Isn't he probably the one who sends the ball across the field to the only real spot that anyone has?  Not sure that when I'm 10-15 yards behind the end of the play, committed to getting the FP of the QB who's about to be sacked, that I'd want a TV audience watching them measure to my spot that I got to long after the play was over.  It's one thing to take a soft spot when your close to the spot that's directly across the field from you but in this case IMO it would be one tough sell.

I'll take Zebra99's recommendations. Would even do it without TXMike's recommendation above.

[Robert Lewis]

The LJ does rule the play dead. He winds to indicate the play ended in bounds.

I'm with Zebra99, gotta use cross-field mechanics and spot the ball near the LJ sideline. We bring a lot of attention to ourselves and (IMO) lose credibility when we're moving the ball 40 yards across the field to spot it for the measurment and then bringing it 20 yards back to the near hash. The L isn't so far out of this play that he shouldn't have at least some idea about where the progress spot is, and if he uses cross-field to subtly spot the ball off of the H, few people outside of the officiating crew know that it's happening.

I can't see what the LJ did in this play, but should the LJ hold his place at the LOS until either the QB is sacked or the pass crosses the NZ?

[NVFOA_Ump]

I don't disagree with the cross field mechanic in most cases, but isn't it almost certain that it was the LJ himself who decided that he didn't have a viable spot?

[TXMike]

Nobody is saying the LJ could get a "viable" spot on his own.   He is taking it from his partner.  Is it scientifically precise?  Heck no.  But forward progress is a guess anyway.  The LJ can get it from the H and be as close to "right" as he is gonna be.  Maybe if the LJ had "sold it" better you would not be so averse to putting the ball at his foot?

[mccormicw]

I was at this game.  What the film doesn't show is what happened on a play earlier in the game.  Same type of play to the other side of the field.  LJ has a great progress spot across the field from the play.  The LJ has the spot beyond the first down marker.  The H is 8 yards behind the play, does not look for a crossfield spot and spots the ball 2 to 3 yards short of the first down.  The LJ comes all the way across the field to communicate with the H and R.  The ball is then spotted correctly beyond the first down.

On this play, the LJ looked for the crossfield spot but told the umpire to use the H spot.  I assume, the LJ didnt want to "ballpark" a spot the H had a better view of.  They did move the ball to the correct hash after originally spotting it on the wrong hash.

[TXMike]

I think Mr G has that earlier play also Dave:

[yt=425,350]OgKDJ-jn97w[/yt]

[mccormicw]

I have a question about crossfield spots.  Why wouldn't we use the crossfield spot for the measurement?  Even though it is not the best case scenario, it is better than the near official looking across the field at an "approximate" spot and then making his own "approximate" spot off of it.  Even though he is across the field, that is where the spot is coming from.

[mccormicw]

Thanks for uploading the second video Mike.  I was in the stands straight in line with the LJ's spot.  It is hard to tell in the video but I thought he had a good spot.  Since I was there supporting my brother who plays for Carroll, it would have suited my team better if they had used the H's spot.

[TXMike]

I found that 2d video on Rom Gilbert's video page