Inadvertent signal (whistle)

[TxJim]

In the Texas Bowl.  Baylor attempts a field goal from the B-40 as time expires in the 2nd quarter.  The ball is caught in the air 5 yards deep in the B's end zone by the B1 who begins to move forward toward the filed of play and the Back Judge immediately gives Signal 10.  (the FJ did not signal).  By 3-3-a-3, is B entitled to one untimed down at the B-20?

[Andrew McCarthy]

I'm not sure that's an inadvertant signal- he was signalling the field goal attempt was no good which was clearly the case.  There was no whistle until the return man took a knee in the end zone.  The B then blew his whistle and stopped the clock (Signal 3).  Half over.

[TxJim]

I'm not sure that's an inadvertant signal- he was signalling the field goal attempt was no good which was clearly the case.  There was no whistle until the return man took a knee in the end zone.  The B then blew his whistle and stopped the clock (Signal 3).  Half over.

Are you saying that is not a signal that makes the ball dead?

[Mark uk]

I think what we have here is a rules issue, 4-2-a and 4-2-b both refer to "otherwise signals the ball dead" however we don't appear to have a definition of 'otherwise'. I'm with Andrew on this, nothing incorrect happened.

[Sonofanump]

Did not think about this before, but I have never signalled a kick no good if a B player gains possesion on a failed kick.

I think this might be more along the lines of a "tip" signal that a umpire might give on a live ball.

[Dommer1]

Sure sounds like an inadv. signal that should kill the ball too me. But they probably did the right thing not treating this as an IW.

[Diablo]

What if:
A forward pass is muffed by A88, but the ball remains in flight. 
Covering official gives S10 - no whistle.
B34 catches the ball and advances.

Do IW rules apply?

[zebra99]

the signal should not have been given but with that said, let's not trouble trouble - we are to manage the game - not be overly technical rule book officials.  Just imagine applying the IW rule on the last play of the BCS championship and then B throws a bomb to win the game!

[TXMike]

In the case of the missed FG, the signal had no real effect on anything unless you want to argue B would have returned it had he not seen the signal.   But did he even see it?

[Kalle]

I don't really understand why the language "or otherwise signals the ball dead" is in the rule book. If that doesn't include signals S3, S5, S6, S7 and S10, then what does it include? It must mean something, as it wasn't cleaned up by RR in the major cleanup.

[TxJim]

I don't really understand why the language "or otherwise signals the ball dead" is in the rule book. If that doesn't include signals S3, S5, S6, S7 and S10, then what does it include? It must mean something, as it wasn't cleaned up by RR in the major cleanup.

Kalle, you got to the point that I made in chat last night about "otherwise signals" and that RR needs to clean up the signal definitions.   

[TxJim]

In the case of the missed FG, the signal had no real effect on anything unless you want to argue B would have returned it had he not seen the signal.   But did he even see it?

The question Mike is the signal the same as a whistle?  If not, what signals ARE the same as a whistle... by the book?   

[TXMike]

And the answer is....some times.

[TxJim]

And the answer is....some times.

Sounds like a Back Judge answer.   

[Diablo]

The question Mike is the signal the same as a whistle?  If not, what signals ARE the same as a whistle... by the book?   

And the answer is....some times.

OK
At what times would a dead ball signal be the same as a whistle?
Got an example?

[bama_stripes]

Quick pass toward the sideline.  Wing official signals (but does not whistle)  "incomplete", but the pass is actually backwards, and all players stop.

[Diablo]

Quick pass toward the sideline.  Wing official signals (but does not whistle)  "incomplete", but the pass is actually backwards, and all players stop.

After any inadvertent dead-ball signal, would you say that whether the players stopped or not would be the primary determinant for applying inadvertent whistle rules?

[bama_stripes]

After any inadvertent dead-ball signal, would you say that whether the players stopped or not would be the primary determinant for applying inadvertent whistle rules?

I think you'd certainly have to take that into account.

Using the "incomplete signal on a backward pass" scenario, I wouldn't want to see an unearned TD or turnover if some of the players have reacted to the signal.

[Diablo]

I think you'd certainly have to take that into account.

Using the "incomplete signal on a backward pass" scenario, I wouldn't want to see an unearned TD or turnover if some of the players have reacted to the signal.

A prominent DI deep judge suggested I use the same criteria to determine if a "get away" or "pointing" signal (during a punt) was or was not an invalid fair catch signal.
Just wondering how prevalent this technique is.

Wondering also if the "continuing action" concept in IR would apply in these sorts of situations, 

[MJT]

A prominent DI deep judge suggested I use the same criteria to determine if a "get away" or "pointing" signal (during a punt) was or was not an invalid fair catch signal.
Just wondering how prevalent this technique is.

Wondering also if the "continuing action" concept in IR would apply in these sorts of situations, 

ANY signal at all by a return man results in the ball becoming dead when any team B player possesses the ball with no foul being called. It doesn't matter if it is a valid or invalid FC signal, or any type of get away signal.

[TXMike]

If the return man puts 1 hand straight up in the air and holds it straight up befor them bringing it down to make the catch, is that a "signal"?