Dave Parry's comments re 12/30/2010 bowls

[TXMike]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/12/ncaa-officials-coordinator-backs-calls-in-pinstripe-music-city-bowls/1

[Rulesman]

Well, so much for the illegal participation on the last play vs. ILS!

[BP1911]

Quote: "Tyler Yates went to spike the ball, but several members of the field-goal unit came on the field, causing Yates to hesitate. The clock showed no time left after he threw the ball into the ground. Officials called the game over, but replay officials stopped the Vols' celebration.

The final ruling was a five-yard penalty on the Tar Heels for too many men on the field, but that there was one second left on the clock"

OK... I am understand the I.R. putting the 1 sec left on the clock.   But can someone please explain the difference between Illegal Particaption (15 Yards) and Illegal Subsitution (5 yards)?

Approved Ruling 9-1-5
I. Team A, with 12 men on the field of play, snaps at its 40-yard line
and throws a complete or incomplete forward pass. RULING: Illegal
participation. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.

Technically it was 13-14 UNC players (ON THE FIELD OF PLAY) at the time of the snap.  So why were they not backed up 15 yards??

[pgh guy]

Big Surprise the former B10 chief supports these calls...

[Rulesman]

There's discusssion on another thread about the 5 vs. 15 "confusion." TXMike came up with something that indicates at least one conference doesn't want 15 called in that situation.

So now we can question since when do the conferences determine rule interpretation? I thought the purpose of a National Coordinator was to get rid of all the individual philosophy. Obviously, there is still some work to be done.

[JasonTX]

There's discusssion on another thread about the 5 vs. 15 "confusion." TXMike came up with something that indicates at least one conference doesn't want 15 called in that situation.

So now we can question since when do the conferences determine rule interpretation? I thought the purpose of a National Coordinator was to get rid of all the individual philosophy. Obviously, there is still some work to be done.

They flagged ILS.  I'm not sure that replay can change a call from ILS to ILP.  Had they not called anything, replay could have came back in and made an ILP call.

[karmex]

I've been trying to make sense of this all day:

12-3-6.  No other plays or officiating decisions are reviewable.  However, the replay official may correct egregious errors, including those
involving the game clock, whether or not a play is reviewable. This excludes fouls that are not specifically reviewable (Reviewable fouls: Rules 12-3-2-c and d, 12-3-4-b and 12-3-5-a).

3-2-2-b Timing errors on the game clock may be corrected but shall be corrected only in the period in which they occur.
3-2-2-c If the referee has positive knowledge of the elapsed time, he will reset and appropriately start the game clock.

3-1-1-a No period shall end until the ball is dead and the referee declares the period ended.

I remember the referee declaring the game was over.  Shouldn't that mean the period has ended and therefore timing errors cannot be corrected?  Or is there some aspect of Rule 12 that I'm not understanding.  I would think that when the referee declares the game over that replay would no longer apply.  Apparently I'm wrong (for the last time this year!), but I'm curious as to why?

[TXMike]

I suspect whomever was wearing the IR buzzer got buzzed before the R made his announcement but in the chaose could not get to him.  It is the same thing when the ball appears to be snapped beofre they stop for IR   In reality, thebuzzer went off before the snap, but the R just did not know it

[BP1911]

Not asking Replay to change the call.   Just simply want to know When can Illegal Participation be called.   To me it seems as if they only way officials will call it these days if someone can't count quick enough to only give team a 5 yard ILS?

[cincybearcat]

just saw the replay of this play.  isn't this play like A.R. 3.5.2.I??? 
Any player(s), in excess of 11, obviously is withdrawing but has not
reached a boundary line when the ball is put in play and he does not
interfere with play or players. RULING: Penalty—Five yards from
the previous spot (Rules 7-1-3-b Penalty and 7-1-4-b Penalty).

i've only seen the replay once, but looked like the players were trying to get off the field, and did not participate in play?  that is a proper 5 yarder in my book

[TXMike]

Count the number of Team A guys stationary in the formation, not counting any of those who were running off.  You will see 12

[Diablo]

Well, so much for the illegal participation on the last play vs. ILS!

I think the video from this game in the thread entitled "Carryover Penalty into OT" shows that NC had 12 men on the field and participating in the next to last down.  It's a bit fuzzy, but stop the video at 32 sec., just after the QB's spike.  I count 12 white-jerseyed NC players coming off the field.
Does anyone else count 12?

[TXMike]

Yep  They had 12 (including a kicker and holder behind the QB)

[Atlanta Blue]

I suspect whomever was wearing the IR buzzer got buzzed before the R made his announcement but in the chaose could not get to him.  It is the same thing when the ball appears to be snapped beofre they stop for IR   In reality, thebuzzer went off before the snap, but the R just did not know it

At least in the SEC, ALL officials except the Back Judge wear the buzzers.  If IR was buzzing, the R knew it.  It's not a gentle vibrate, it will shake your innards.

[Rulesman]

They flagged ILS.  I'm not sure that replay can change a call from ILS to ILP.  Had they not called anything, replay could have came back in and made an ILP call.

Jason, read 12-3-5a.

[JasonTX]

Jason, read 12-3-5a.

Got it.  I was just going off a statement someone else made in the chat room last night.

[MJT]

Jason, read 12-3-5a.

That is not real clear on if they can change a call on the field from ILS to ILP, or just determine if there were more than 11. The videoreview is usually used in this situation to see if a player running off the field got off the field before the snap as he was running off. d

[zebra99]

Our IR interpretation is that more than 11 on the field and not attempting to leave can be corrected by IR.  Players in excess of 11 trying to get off the field is totally within the discretion (therefore not reviewable) of the on field officials as to ILS vs. IP.

I beleive that is the national interpretation as well.

My hunch is that Parry's comment may have been made without the knowledge that 12 players were set in formation at the snap.  So I would not read too much into his statement.  Just my pure guess, however.

[110]

Of course, there is another way to avoid this mess: hold the clock to allow both sides reasonable time to make whatever substitutions they feel appropriate.

[Rulesman]

Of course, there is an other way to avoid this mess: hold the clock to allow both sides reasonable time to make whatever substitutions they feel appropriate.

[FBREF]

One of the biggest issues we have this time of year as every Bowl Season is we have announcers that work NFL gams on Sunday and do not/will not know the rules of College Football.  I watched the games with 7 of my buddies yesterday and they were astonished that the Rules Committee was made up entirely of coaches.  One of them had the best quote of the night, "What the hell do coaches know about the rules?" 

The problem you have is the Big 10/11/12 or whatever they are have made 2 calls that get really sticky and then the North Carolina-Tennessee game has a defender do a throat slash, one did not one, but a double handed salute and then it does not get called.  I may have missed it somewhere but I thought CFO was to ensure that mechanics and rules were carried out the same across the country.  Sorry to rant, but this is part of our problem as Officials having to defend ourselves when a guy from Alabama, or California calls it differently than the guy from Texas or Michigan.  I know Todd Geerlings and he is a stand up guy and is at the top of his game.  He handled about as well as he could with what he had to work with.

[110]

It's what we do up here in the frozen hinterlands. We hold the RFP until both teams have made their subs.
'Course, we also have way odd timing for the last three minutes, too.
Maybe the other way around is to allow a play to get off if there's still time on the clock at the start of that play? (We also do that up here.)

[cincybearcat]

imo, i just don't think we'll make any more strides in true consistancy accross the country until the cfo gets seme true clout.  my understanding is (and I could be wrong)...the only thing the cfo office has control over is which conferences recieves which bowl assignments.  they obviously don't decide which officials work the game, just which conference.  this may not even be the case, i just think that's the way it works.  until the cfo gets more power than that...or until Parry starts withholding bowl assignments to conferences that supervisors don't follow the cfo mandates, i just don't see us making more strides towards national consistancy.  i'm not saying any of the calls i have seen is worthy of loosing bowl assignments...this is more of just a commentary of the cfo and national consistancy.

[Luke]

I watched the games with 7 of my buddies yesterday and they were astonished that the Rules Committee was made up entirely of coaches.  One of them had the best quote of the night, "What the hell do coaches know about the rules?"

More like the worst quote of the night.  First off Rogers Redding is on the committee....he isn't a coach.  5 of the voting members are not coaches, 3 of them are athletic directors and the other 2 are conference commissioners.  In fact there is a quota of how many administrators (non-coaches) must be on the committee.  And why would anyone think that the rules committee members don't know anything about the rules?

[Dommer1]

If you think that was the worst quote of the night, you must have watched the games with the sound muted.