Thoughts on Penalty with :01 left in Music City Bowl

[RickKY]

NC was down by 3 late in the game with possession in FG range.  After a running play that ended with :09 and no time outs remaining, NC QB tried to line up and snap and spike the ball to stop the clock.  Immediately before the snap the place kicking team entered the field, they appeared confused, and tried and failed to exit the field.  The QB managed to spike the ball with :01 left (replay confirmed this time remaining).  After administering the 5 yards foul for illegal substitution, NC kicked the FG to tie as time expired.  NC then won in OT.

Most people think that NC benefitted from their own foul.  However, the rules were applied correctly I think, unless IP was more correct.  The QB did manage to spike the ball with time left with or without considering the foul.  Can anyone shed any light that makes me think otherwise?  I am not an NCAA official, but I have been asked by a few friends to explain that situation.

[TXMike]

Beat to death

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7669.0


http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7667.0

[Andrew McCarthy]

I am not an NCAA official, but I have been asked by a few friends to explain that situation.

Wouldn't the same thing happen in NF rules?

[RickKY]

Beat to death

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7669.0


http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7667.0

Sorry!  I did not read that post due to NFL reference.

[RickKY]

Wouldn't the same thing happen in NF rules?

Under NF rules the additional players would constitute illegal substitution unless they participated in or affected the play.  So if that is how the NCAA rules apply, then yes.  I am not fmailiar with the specifics of the NCAA sub/particpate rules.

[AlUpstateNY]

It certainly sounds like the kicking formation acted prematurely in entering the field, which is a "Substitution" foul, rather than were attempting to use an additional 11 players to gain an unfair advantage in kicking a field goal, which might be an "illegal Participation" foul.  So the 5 yard penalty seems appropriate.

A team, any team, should only be penalized for the foul they commit, not for the worst possible penalty available because of the game situation.

[TXMike]

The defense is probably never "trying" to play with 12 either. They end up with 12 by mistake.  If the snap gets off before the 12 are counted, isn't that illegal participation?

[Bullycon]

Wouldn't the same thing happen in NF rules?

An foul intentionally committed to stop the clock is considered an unfair act by NFHS interpretation. The offense is not allowed to benefit from the stopping of the clock; the referee starts the clock and ends the game. (9.9.1 Situation A.)

Of course, in that case play, the ball is dead and the player commits a dead-ball foul to stop the clock. In this play, we have a live-ball foul. But, the quarterback called for the snap, knowing full well that he could not do so without committing a foul for illegal substitution. But he did so anyway, because he could not stop the clock legally.

My view is that the case book applies and the game should end. But I could be wrong.

[williebe]

This is my question with the call, if it is a major foul, 15 yards, on the D after the snap for IP, than why is it not for the O?

[Andrew McCarthy]

This is my question with the call, if it is a major foul, 15 yards, on the D after the snap for IP, than why is it not for the O?

If this same play happened but it was 4 extra guys running to the sideline trying to get off on Team B while the ball was snapped and spiked, wouldn't that be a 5-yarder?

[TXMike]

If there were atill 12 in the formation (just like there was in this play) in addition to the 4 running off, it would be illegal participation AND illegal substitution

[AlUpstateNY]

An foul intentionally committed to stop the clock is considered an unfair act by NFHS interpretation. The offense is not allowed to benefit from the stopping of the clock; the referee starts the clock and ends the game. (9.9.1 Situation A.)

But, the quarterback called for the snap, knowing full well that he could not do so without committing a foul for illegal substitution. But he did so anyway, because he could not stop the clock legally.

My view is that the case book applies and the game should end. But I could be wrong.

Do you think there's even a remote possibility that the QB might have simply got confused by the heat of the moment and did what he was told to do without even considering the possibility that doing so would be wrong?  As you suggest, INTENTIONALLY ILLEGALLY STOPPING THE CLOCK, would allow the Referee to restart play with his RFP, but whether that is what this situation involved is highly doubtful, based on available information.

[TXMike]

A NCAA bulletin took the option away to start on RFP.  That being said, there will likely be a rule change to deal with this.

[RickKY]

An foul intentionally committed to stop the clock is considered an unfair act by NFHS interpretation. The offense is not allowed to benefit from the stopping of the clock; the referee starts the clock and ends the game. (9.9.1 Situation A.)

Of course, in that case play, the ball is dead and the player commits a dead-ball foul to stop the clock. In this play, we have a live-ball foul. But, the quarterback called for the snap, knowing full well that he could not do so without committing a foul for illegal substitution. But he did so anyway, because he could not stop the clock legally.

My view is that the case book applies and the game should end. But I could be wrong.

I don't think the foul was intended to stop the clock, as spiking the ball was intended to do that.  I believe the FG unit was rushing onto the field to kick the FG before time expired and committed the foul in the process.

[The Ref Thats Lef]

The defense is probably never "trying" to play with 12 either. They end up with 12 by mistake.  If the snap gets off before the 12 are counted, isn't that illegal participation?

Surely the question is did any of the extra players participate in the play. I know we have discussed this before but I think the rule of thumb is if you know who the extra player is then it's 5 yards and if you do not then it's 15

[RickKY]

The real question is:  Why did NC run the ball with no time outs remaining and only 14 seconds left on the clock?