Author Topic: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship  (Read 35793 times)

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chymechowder

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Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« on: January 07, 2011, 09:29:09 PM »
3:45 left in 4Q. East Washington trails by 6 and has 4th and 1 at the Delaware 23.

Running play. Ball spotted just inside the 22. They measure, signal first down (by a ball length) and move the chains.  Then replay checks the spot.  WH: "The ball will be spotted at the 22 yardline and we will re-measure."

Respot, remeasure. Still a first down--by the very tip of the ball. 

Couple questions:

1. does IR typically check and/or change the spots on plays like runs up the middle?  seems like there'd be gray area in changing a spot like that. (as opposed to, say, determining where a ball carrier crosses the sideline.)

2. Is their ability to remeasure dependent upon the chain crew having 2 clips on the chain? Having moved the chains, did they need to have the previous clip in order to go back? Or could the H simply say, "Look the clip was at the 30 on the first measurement."

3. Crew looked really good. But what's up with those big orange beanbags?  :)

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 09:33:46 PM »
I can't speak to any of this but the last part.

I get to see SoCon officials about 5 times a year.  They always wear orange beanbags, and have for about 4-5 years.  Don't know why, just know that they do.

RMAC Deep Guy

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 09:52:21 PM »
That certainly wasn't the best use of replay I have ever seen. 

Offline TxGrayhat

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 09:53:26 PM »
Bet they don't lose em in the tall grass.. LOL
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Offline jrfath

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 10:00:42 PM »
The reason we wear the orange beanbags is because they show up good on film.

No-calls are soon forgotten...blown calls live forever.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 10:06:54 PM »
I know this goes without saying, but if somebody has video of this situation I'd love to get the link.  A lot of us could learn from something like this.

Adibisi

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »
The reason we wear the orange beanbags is because they show up good on film.



I have been working college football for 12 years and in all the film review I've been involved with I can't recall one play where we went back and said there's the bean bag or where's the bean bag! 

That whole replay was botched.  Call should have stood as called on the field.  Nothing good was going to come from reviewing that play.

Offline With_Two_Flakes

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 05:06:23 AM »
I seem to recall hearing that Gerald Austin Conf USA supervisor of officials introduced them for his conference because he felt they showed up better when he was reviewing film of his staff. Some of us over here in the UK use them and I must admit I find the orange bag easier to find when I go to pick it up after use.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 06:45:15 AM »
Delaware was up 19-0 at one point.  They missed the PAT on the first TD.  But it was this measurement that cost the the game?   hEaDbAnG

Delaware Blue Hens football: Keeler adamant referees erred in fourth-down call
By MARTIN FRANK • The News Journal • January 8, 2011

 FRISCO, Texas -- University of Delaware coach K.C. Keeler said he thought the Hens had the game won late in the fourth quarter, on a fourth-and-one play from the 23-yard line.

There were less than four minutes left, and Eastern Washington, trailing by six points, gave the ball to running back Mario Brown, who ran into a wall of UD defenders, desperately trying to get the first down.
He was stopped, and the referees came out to measure. Brown was given the first down. But the referees decided to review the spot, making sure their placement was accurate.
After the review, they moved the ball back about 6 inches, measured again, and this time Brown had gotten the first down by about an inch.
Three plays later, Eastern Washington scored the winning touchdown, sending UD to a 20-19 loss in the NCAA Division I-AA championship game Friday.
Keeler, however, was adamant that the referees had made a mistake on the measurement, saying the clip on the chain had been taken off after the initial spot had given EWU a first down, and that it wasn't put back in the proper place for the review.
All of this happened right in front of Keeler.
"The review came back that the ball is being put back to the 22," Keeler said. "As soon as we heard that, we knew we had the stop because we knew the chains were past the 22. They came over to the chain crew, and the chain crew was confused because they moved the clip already. So they guessed."
Keeler kept protesting, to no avail. So he called timeout.
"They wouldn't talk to me anymore," Keeler said about the referees. "We stopped them, no ifs, ands or buts about it ... That's disappointing. We're in a championship game and we have a spot with three minutes to go in the game that dictates who wins and who loses.
"I usually don't complain about things like that, but that one hurt. It really did."
There's no saying that UD would have been able to run out the clock and win the game if the Hens had taken over in that situation.
But it sure would have been a lot tougher for Eastern Washington to score the winning touchdown.
EWU coach Beau Baldwin said the referees did the right thing by reviewing the spot. Still, it was nerve-wracking for him waiting for the result.
"They were trying to figure out where the spot was," Baldwin said. "And they just wanted to get it right. I get that. The whole idea with the replay is to make sure they get it right in big games, and that's all they were trying to do.
"It's always going to be gut-wrenching for a coach during those situations ... You just hate to see it when it's going to be about a half an inch one way or the other, and that's the hardest part to take."
Just ask Keeler.

EWU scores three TDs in final 17 minutes to rally for title
Updated date: Last Updated - January 8, 2011 2:15 GMT
E-mail: Contact | Archive | RSS 
APDelaware head coach K.C. KeelerJerry Trickie, NCAA.com

FRISCO, Texas -- Ask a coach in the week leading up to a game what it will be like once his team hits the field and you might get the usual, pre-packaged answer. After the contest, it’s not quite the same. It’s typically a little more open, some might say a tad more honest.

Delaware head coach K.C. Keeler definitely fell into the honest group Friday night discussing how his team, which led 19-0 midway through the third quarter, lost its grip in the closing minutes of a thrilling championship tilt.

“To say this loss was devastating would be an understatement,” Keeler said to open his postgame news conference. “I don’t think I’ve ever been associated with a loss like this.”

The Blue Hens’ inability to stop Eastern Washington during the final 9 minutes gave the Eagles their first national title with an almost improbable 20-19 victory in front of a crowd of 13,027 at Pizza Hut Park. EWU’s Bo Levi Mitchell, the strong-armed quarterback from Katy, Texas, guided his team with near ruthless efficiency in the last period and a half before finally taking a bow in the end zone after the clock hit zero with a national championship in hand.

It wasn’t easy though as Delaware dominated early.

The Blue Hens led 12-0 at halftime after racking up 230 yards almost equally on the ground (116) and through the air (114). The defense, which came in as the top scoring defense in the country and ranked fifth in total defense, held the Eagles to just 62 yards before intermission, a season low for the first half by 23 yards. Mitchell was just 6 of 11 for 36 yards after two quarters.

“We pretty much dominated the first half but my concern was, you know, not having enough points on the board with how well we dominated,” Keeler said. “But we dominated the game and you knew that Eastern Washington was a big-play team and you just waited for them to make a couple big plays."

He was right.

UD went up by 19 points after the teams exchanged turnovers before things started to get away from the Blue Hens. Mitchell guided EWU on an 80-yard, five-play drive, slicing up what was considered to be the best secondary in the FCS with three consecutive completions for 35, 24 and 22 yards to put Eastern Washington on the board.

“We had some opportunities to put the ballgame away and we didn’t put the ball game away; shame on us for not putting the ballgame away,” Keeler said. “They are a very good football team. It’s a tough, tough, tough way to lose, especially the way you dominated the first half the way we did."

From there, momentum only went one way and it wasn’t the same as the first half.

“It’s just they started making some plays down field, that’s what they do and what they’re about,” Keeler said. “They got some momentum and momentum’s tough.”

Once they started rolling, the Eagles never stopped, even when its luck looked as though it might have run out. That came when Eastern Washington faced fourth-and-1 from the Delaware 23. Running back Mario Brown ended up being credited with a 1-yard run, but it wasn’t that simple.

“We stopped them,” Keeler said. “There’s no ifs, ands or buts about it, we stopped them.”

The officials didn’t see it that way.

Following the run, the Eagles were credited with a first down. Before the next snap, the play was reviewed and the ball moved back about what appeared to be the length of the football. Keeler called timeout after the officials awarded a first down for the second time and asked for them to check the spot of the chains, which had been moved before the review started.

“The way the ball was spotted originally, that was a first down. But the chain was not on the 22. The chain was past the 22. That’s why when they said the ball is put back on the 22, we knew we stopped them,” Keeler said. “Not game over, but game close to over.”

While the spot didn’t go in Delaware’s favor, the Blue Hens still had a chance to end the game on top. The Eagles wouldn't let that happen as a break down in pass coverage on second down followed by a perfectly placed ball from Mitchell on first-and-10 from the 11 gave EWU the win.

Even though his defense had chances after the unique fourth-down situation, the coach still had a bad feeling about it after the game.

“That’s disappointing,” Keeler said. “You know, we’re in a championship ballgame and we have a spot with 3 minutes left to go in the game that dictates who wins and loses. Usually I don’t really complain about things like that, but that really hurt. It really did
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 07:03:06 AM by TXMike »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 08:18:22 AM »
According to a retired SC official in our group, the orange beanbags were selected by the supervisor of officials several years ago after his officials could not come to a consensus on what color to select to use.

Sounds as if one of two things need to happen- 1) must use two clips in NCAA or 2) once chains have moved, IR of spot shouldn't be allowed.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 09:42:32 AM »
I seem to recall hearing that Gerald Austin Conf USA supervisor of officials introduced them for his conference because he felt they showed up better when he was reviewing film of his staff. Some of us over here in the UK use them and I must admit I find the orange bag easier to find when I go to pick it up after use.
I recall Don Lucas, Sun Belt and SoCon supervisor, might have beat Austin to adopting orange. Seems like I remember a story (true or not, it's a good story) where it was put to a vote at a clinic - blue or white. They couldn't decide so Lucas came up with orange to settle it. They are no uglier than blue or red turf fields.
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 09:50:00 AM »
I watched the game and don't remember by how much they made the first down in the original measurement. That would be very telling/

Offline TXMike

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 10:07:31 AM »
Warning..this is a lllloooonnnggggg  video...took quite awhile to handle and I included all the footage

[yt=425,350]hIzvK7U7TPY[/yt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIzvK7U7TPY

Rav4

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 10:51:07 AM »
That's one of the reasons as a H, I always ask my chain crew to use 2 clips.  In pregame I ask my clip man to leave the original clip in place until we have a snap from the new line to gain spot.  Let me say at the level I work we do not have the luxury of replay, aux box and the such but it can and would have been a life saver in this case.  Sometimes it's about perception as well, if you look like you know what your doing there is less room for doubt.  No matter what the crew did, if the clip was moved then relaced they were doomed.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 11:19:09 AM »
Looked like they made it in the original measurement by about 8", and if the reports are accurate that the ball was re-spotted by the IR crew 6" shorter, it still would have been a first down.

Offline Sumstine

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »
If you look at the first pull the LTG is the far side of the 22 yard white line marker on the field. Replay could have used the first pull to determine the chain location.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 12:29:32 PM by Sumstine »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2011, 01:03:18 PM »
That's one of the reasons as a H, I always ask my chain crew to use 2 clips.  In pregame I ask my clip man to leave the original clip in place until we have a snap from the new line to gain spot.  Let me say at the level I work we do not have the luxury of replay, aux box and the such but it can and would have been a life saver in this case.  Sometimes it's about perception as well, if you look like you know what your doing there is less room for doubt.  No matter what the crew did, if the clip was moved then relaced they were doomed.

You raise a couple of valid points.  Using a second clip, as you describe, sounds like a good idea, and most of all if you look like you know what you're doing, that counts perhaps more than anything else.  One point, I'd dispute however;  Instant replay is nowhere near being a luxury.  There is statistical proof it has corrected calls, however whether or not it has advanced the game is an entirely different perspective.

Perhaps the single best rule, differentiating NFHS from NCAA football is NF: 1-1-9 " The officials shall have the authority to make decisions for infractions of the rules.  The use of any replay or television monitoring equipment by the officials in making any decision related to the game is prohibited.".

Wingman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2011, 07:33:24 PM »
While I can't say "all" collegiate head-linesman's at all levels use two clips, I know I did while working Dii-iii level. I also know of at least one Big East H that does, so I will assume they all do in the BE.

My instructions to the clip guy was to leave the second clip on until the first play after the move has ended. Had they done that here... and we really don't know do we that the clip was removed .. resetting the chains would be a none-issue.

Offline jrfath

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 08:17:30 PM »
2 clips were being used.   @ 5:50 of the youtube, you can see a clip on the chain @ the 20 yardline (in a perfect world, you should see 2 clips very close to each other).  Then 10 seconds later, you see the 2nd clip - in the hands of the chain crew person (assume it is the clip man) talking to the H.
No-calls are soon forgotten...blown calls live forever.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2011, 12:11:10 AM »
2 clips were being used.   @ 5:50 of the youtube, you can see a clip on the chain @ the 20 yardline (in a perfect world, you should see 2 clips very close to each other).  Then 10 seconds later, you see the 2nd clip - in the hands of the chain crew person (assume it is the clip man) talking to the H.

The question is, which clip is in the chain crewman's hand...the first or the second?  You are right...they would have been within inches of each other.  The way that the clip is laid out on the 20, I'm guessing (purely speculation) that this is the new clip...straightened out to set the marker on it.  I'd bet that the clip in the guy's hand is the old clip that was on the 30.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2011, 09:39:10 AM »
Sounds like this incident highlites several important points;

1. Using a second clip seems like a really good idea, and when used properly may prove extremely helpful in 
    eliminating potentially serious problems.

2.  Focus and paying attention to detail on EVERY instance involving the chains is important.

3.  Hustle is always important, and "Hurry" is a bad thing that can cause serious problems.  The "Football Gods" look for
     imaginative ways to punish "Hurry".

Offline Reftobe

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 12:40:06 PM »
Spoke to one of the down field officials in this game and came away with this...

4th down -- running play, ball was spotted by the wing officials (H).  R calls for a measurement (no buzz from replay)...R signals 1st down (no buzz from replay). Chains are reset on the sideline (no buzz from replay).  R waits for officials to get into position (no buzz from replay), R winds clock (no buzz from replay).  Officials count eleven players (no buzz from replay), 10 seconds come off game clock (FINALLY -- buzz from replay).  R goes to replay official and is told to "respot the ball on the 22 yard line and measure again".  R returns and has ball respotted and calls for a measurement.  The chain crew thinking everything was ok had removed the clip when the R wound the clock and ball was about to be snapped (mistake by chain crew).  The chain crew had been told by the H/L before the game to not remove the clip until "after" the ball was snapped on first down.  When the R found out the clip had been removed, he asked if anyone was writing down the down and distance.  The H had someone doing this and went to him.  The chains were then set.  R measured...1st down.  HC tells R chains are not set properly.  R tells HC to call TO and he would verify with replay whether the chains were set correctly or not.  R goes to replay.  Replay confirms chain are set properly.

The deep wing told me the R did everything he could to take all the doubt out of the process caused by a "late" review by the replay official.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 01:49:50 PM »
Spoke to one of the down field officials in this game and came away with this...

4th down -- running play, ball was spotted by the wing officials (H).  R calls for a measurement (no buzz from replay)...R signals 1st down (no buzz from replay). Chains are reset on the sideline (no buzz from replay).  R waits for officials to get into position (no buzz from replay), R winds clock (no buzz from replay).  Officials count eleven players (no buzz from replay), 10 seconds come off game clock (FINALLY -- buzz from replay).  R goes to replay official and is told to "respot the ball on the 22 yard line and measure again". 
R showed a lot more restraint than I would have shown. My response might have been to the effect "if you want it respotted now, get your IDIOT down here and do it yourself 'cause there ain't no way I'm doing it after all this time!"
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Diablo

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 02:02:02 PM »
Spoke to one of the down field officials in this game and came away with this...

4th down -- running play, ball was spotted by the wing officials (H).  R calls for a measurement (no buzz from replay)...R signals 1st down (no buzz from replay). Chains are reset on the sideline (no buzz from replay).  R waits for officials to get into position (no buzz from replay), R winds clock (no buzz from replay).  Officials count eleven players (no buzz from replay), 10 seconds come off game clock (FINALLY -- buzz from replay).  R goes to replay official and is told to "respot the ball on the 22 yard line and measure again".  R returns and has ball respotted and calls for a measurement.  The chain crew thinking everything was ok had removed the clip when the R wound the clock and ball was about to be snapped (mistake by chain crew).  The chain crew had been told by the H/L before the game to not remove the clip until "after" the ball was snapped on first down.  When the R found out the clip had been removed, he asked if anyone was writing down the down and distance.  The H had someone doing this and went to him.  The chains were then set.  R measured...1st down.  HC tells R chains are not set properly.  R tells HC to call TO and he would verify with replay whether the chains were set correctly or not.  R goes to replay.  Replay confirms chain are set properly.

The deep wing told me the R did everything he could to take all the doubt out of the process caused by a "late" review by the replay official.

By "down and distance", I assume you are referring to the previous down & distance.  If so, how did the R use the previous down and distance (4/1 @ B-23) to reset the chains?

Offline Reftobe

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Re: Replay and Remeasure in FCS Championship
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2011, 07:28:22 PM »
My bad...

"After further review"... When the R found out the clip had been removed, he asked if anyone was writing down the down and distance or was keeping up with where the stakes were.  Both chain holders were writing down where they had started on every series.  The H had someone doing this and went to him.  The chains were then set.