When is a Scrimmage Kick Dead by Rule ?

[TXMike]

From Rom Gilbert's video site:

[yt=425,350]XzZXTYLvtmY[/yt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZXTYLvtmY&feature=player_embedded

[DSMitchell]

When the ball is (off the top of my head and late at night):

1. OOB
2. Recovered by K and kneeled.
3. Recovered by K and handed to an official.
4. Recovered by R and he is tackled, goes OOB or scores.
5. Fair catch by R.
6. Ball stopped and no attempt by R to recover the ball and official whistles ball dead.

Any more?

[With_Two_Flakes]

NCAA 6-3-6
Dead as soon as it is caught or recovered by K.
Dead if simultaneous possession.

Kicks that cross the NZ we're talking about obviously...

[Etref]

The correct answer may be,



NOT THIS ONE!

[RedTD]

The correct answer may be,



NOT TIHS ONE!

Except - 6. Ball stopped and no attempt by R to recover the ball and official whistles ball dead.

[Birddog]

Another good one on this topic is the last play of the Texas v Texas A&M game.  I know we talked about that one too.  Ball rolled to a stop, and then time expired.

[TXMike]

I see the ball roll to a stop and then Team B player immediately bends down to make a play on it.

[Kalle]

Does B47 give a waving signal and if yes, does that matter?

[TXMike]

I was hoping that would be ignored for the sake of discussion.  But, yes it would matter if the play had been allowed to continue, as play would have to be stopped as soon as B got possession anyway due to the invalid signal.

[NCAA-SJ]

Well, then the kick becomes dead when an official blows his whistle; plus, the NCAA rulebook never refers to K or R....just saying

[DSMitchell]

plus, the NCAA rulebook never refers to K or R....just saying

Just my references that everyone understands for convenience

[azsteam]

If no one is attempting to recover the ball and than the ball is stopped.  Would that make the ball dead?

[Rulesman]

If no one is attempting to recover the ball and than the ball is stopped.  Would that make the ball dead?

Yes. See 4-1-3f.

[TXMike]

At the precise moment it stops?

[Mike L]

At the precise moment it stops?

Going to be the judgement of the covering official of just how long it must be stopped and whether any B players are making an attempt to recover the ball. The rules give no time period. The guy in this play may have been a little fast in killing it, but kill it he did before B made a move to the ball, so I find it hard to knock him about it.

[Atlanta Blue]

At the precise moment it stops?

I think what made a difference here is that there were numurous B players that had a chance to pick up the ball while it was still moving and didn't.  in essence, they had already shown they were not going to try to advance the ball.  So AS SOON AS it came to a stop, the official blew it dead.

It might well have been treated differently if no one were around it, and a B player was racing to get it when it stopped moving.  The covering official may not have been as quick with the whistle in that case.

I have no problem with the call on this play.

[chymechowder]

true, but if Team A (foolishly) walks away from a punt that's still rolling or has just stopped rolling, then Team B might change their mind about picking it up.   

Can't tell from the tape. It's possible that Team A walked away because a whistle had already been blown.

But if they give up on the live ball prematurely, that's their mistake. and if Team B wants to capitalize on it, that's their prerogative.

In general, I think we should be extra careful anytime we see TEAM B gathering around a punt like this. Because it's the opposite of what usually happens on a rolling punt. and it could be a "warning sign" of an unusual return.

[TXMike]

In general, I think we should be extra careful anytime we see TEAM B gathering around a punt like this. Because it's the opposite of what usually happens on a rolling punt. and it could be a "warning sign" of an unusual return.

Exactly!   Perhaps they were runniong the old "Kick return is not imminent" play!!      And then we could flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct.   

I do agree though that since it was B  around the ball we should be more circumspect about shutting it down.  Maybe Team B is the better coached team and they know if they see A moving away from the ball that they can pick it up and go.  Are we going to prevent them from using their smarts? 

[Chester]

I think what made a difference here is that there were numurous B players that had a chance to pick up the ball while it was still moving and didn't.  in essence, they had already shown they were not going to try to advance the ball.  So AS SOON AS it came to a stop, the official blew it dead.

It might well have been treated differently if no one were around it, and a B player was racing to get it when it stopped moving.  The covering official may not have been as quick with the whistle in that case.

I have no problem with the call on this play.

me either. 

[ref6983]

Exactly!   Perhaps they were runniong the old "Kick return is not imminent" play!!      And then we could flag B for unsportsmanlike conduct.   

I do agree though that since it was B  around the ball we should be more circumspect about shutting it down.  Maybe Team B is the better coached team and they know if they see A moving away from the ball that they can pick it up and go.  Are we going to prevent them from using their smarts? 

Nothing good ever happens during these situations when a scrimmage kick is on the ground and no one is attempting to recover. If no one is making any attempt to pick up the ball, then, the instant it stops, the play should be blown dead. If B wants to recover and advance, then they should do it before the ball comes to rest.

Basically, if the ball comes to rest and a Team B player hasn't already started bending over to pick it up when that happens...it's dead.

Waiting 2 or 3 seconds as noted in Gilbert's note gives way too much time for players to do something bad and is a poor guideline that would lead to inconsistently officiating the play.

[Mike L]

So if we're waiting for 2 or 3 seconds after the ball is stopped, and in that interval you have an A player come flying thru to obliterate one of the standing around the ball guys because he might think about picking it up, what  happens then?

[chymechowder]

so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing. I'm not a fan of anyone getting obliterated, mind you. But that's one of the things that can happen when a player stands over a live loose ball before the whistle blows.

I know there's no time limit. And I'm certainly not saying that we should stand over an abandoned ball and wait to see if any of the Team B players who are halfway to their bench might come back and pick it up.

But in the posted video, I do think they were quick with the whistle. I can see why they did it, and I wouldn't ding them big time for it. but a team B player did pick the ball up one second after it came to rest.  I don't think the spirit of 6-3-7 should translate into Team B being unable to advance a ball 1 second after it comes to rest.  Especially if Team A is derelict in their downing duty.

[ref6983]

so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing. I'm not a fan of anyone getting obliterated, mind you. But that's one of the things that can happen when a player stands over a live loose ball before the whistle blows.

I know there's no time limit. And I'm certainly not saying that we should stand over an abandoned ball and wait to see if any of the Team B players who are halfway to their bench might come back and pick it up.

But in the posted video, I do think they were quick with the whistle. I can see why they did it, and I wouldn't ding them big time for it. but a team B player did pick the ball up one second after it came to rest.  I don't think the spirit of 6-3-7 should translate into Team B being unable to advance a ball 1 second after it comes to rest.  Especially if Team A is derelict in their downing duty.

Every player on the field, including the player who eventually picked up the ball, gave up on this play. Had someone "obliterated" anyone, even just before it comes to rest, it would be a foul at that point.

4 Team B players had the opportunity to pick up the ball well before it came to rest, but they didn't. They stopped playing, as did Team A. It's over as soon as the ball comes to rest.

[TXMike]

If the ball had been loose from a backward pass  and became just as motionless with the team b players grouped around it would you say the ball is dead at the moment it stops motion?

[Mike L]

so long as the obliteration is focused above the waist and below the neck, I've got nothing.

Oh, you'd have something alright. Just not a flag for that action which would undoubtably create quite a few other flaggable opportunities.