When is a Scrimmage Kick Dead by Rule ?

[ref6983]

If the ball had been loose from a backward pass  and became just as motionless with the team b players grouped around it would you say the ball is dead at the moment it stops motion?

Most likely, but this is a quite a stretch and not really relevant to a kick play. If a loose ball is on the ground from a normal scrimmage play, backward pass or QB pass/fumble, everyone would recognize that no official has killed the play and someone will go after the ball because it will belong to whoever recovers. There is simply no way it would ever have the chance to come to rest with Team B players surrounding it and no one trying to recover.  On kick plays the receiving team knows they will get the ball if they do nothing, so that's what they are coached to do when it's rolling around...just let it die and it's their ball.

[NCAA-SJ]

Just my references that everyone understands for convenience

Yeah..no biggie...I was just being a douche   

[DSMitchell]

Yeah..no biggie...I was just being a douche   

No problem

[chymechowder]

Every player on the field, including the player who eventually picked up the ball, gave up on this play. Had someone "obliterated" anyone, even just before it comes to rest, it would be a foul at that point.
4 Team B players had the opportunity to pick up the ball well before it came to rest, but they didn't. They stopped playing, as did Team A. It's over as soon as the ball comes to rest.

I dont' think that's accurate. Watch #15 again.  As the ball is rolling, he begins walking up to it. He's looking around as he does so. When the last Team A player turns his back, #15 picks it up.

Maybe he knew what he was doing all along.  Maybe he didn't.  He definitely picked it up one second after it stopped moving. All I'm saying is, for me:

1. I don't think this should've been shut down when it was, with a team B player that close to a ball that was moving less than one second ago; the fact that they weren't running up to field the ball when it was first rolling is irrelevant for me. Maybe it wasn't advantageous for them to do so at the time. Maybe it didn't occur to them right away to do so.

2. If that same player gets blocked by a (hard) shoulder in the chest, I've got no foul: The play hasn't been shut down yet. He's standing right next to a live ball. Why would a block on him be a personal foul?  Yeah, if he's one of the guys walking away from the ball, sure. Personal foul for hitting someone who obviously isn't involved in the play.
But if he's allowed to pick up the ball, he's allowed to be blocked. (He's also allowed to make the mistake of muffing the ball; they're all part of the same package until the ball is dead.)

[Diablo]

chymechowder,
This situation is very much akin to a long TD run in which players of both teams are meandering well behind the ball carrier before he crosses the goalline.  For all  practical purposes the ball is dead to them; hence, we do not allow any live-ball type of hard blocks. 

Granted, the difference in the two situations is that the live ball is near to the action in the punt play.  But as you can note, players for both teams have turned away from the ball and began to move on to the next play.  Just as occurs when the ball carrier is 50 yards ahead of the meandering linemen.  Those lineman have turned away from opponents and are moving on to the next play.

[chymechowder]

agreed. If someone turns his back on the ball and is walking away and gets drilled --personal foul.

but I'm talking about #15 on this play. he is nothing like the players jogging 30 yards behind a ball carrier.  on this play, #15 never turns away from the ball. are you saying if he'd been blocked just  before he bent down to pick it up--you'd have a foul on that??

[Diablo]

but I'm talking about #15 on this play. he is nothing like the players jogging 30 yards behind a ball carrier.  on this play, #15 never turns away from the ball. are you saying if he'd been blocked just  before he bent down to pick it up--you'd have a foul on that??

I deliberately avoided saying this situation is exactly like a long TD run and pointed out the major difference.  The two plays are comparable in the sense that the majority of the players have quit playing and the ball is milliseconds from being legally declared dead. 

By convention over time, officials have ruled that, if a B player wants to play the ball in this situation, he should not wait for the last second when all other players have quit playing.

Would I flag a block on B15 as he bent down to pick up the ball?  Depends on where he was contacted; how much force was applied with the block; how the players had conducted themselves up to that point, and my general state of mind. 

[Osric Pureheart]

Would I flag a block on B15 as he bent down to pick up the ball?  Depends on where he was contacted; how much force was applied with the block; how the players had conducted themselves up to that point, and my general state of mind. 

So you're saying that a player who is attempting to gain possession of the ball can potentially be ruled out of the play?  That's an interesting concept.

[chymechowder]

Most likely, but this is a quite a stretch and not really relevant to a kick play. If a loose ball is on the ground from a normal scrimmage play, backward pass or QB pass/fumble, everyone would recognize that no official has killed the play and someone will go after the ball because it will belong to whoever recovers. There is simply no way it would ever have the chance to come to rest with Team B players surrounding it and no one trying to recover.  On kick plays the receiving team knows they will get the ball if they do nothing, so that's what they are coached to do when it's rolling around...just let it die and it's their ball.

did you watch the steelers / ravens game today?   

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch

(2:10 into the highlights)

[sj]

did you watch the steelers / ravens game today?   

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch

(2:10 into the highlights)

If this is the play you're referring too you can scroll down and you can save the time of the video loading. Click on Redding gets rewarded for being alert

[ref6983]

did you watch the steelers / ravens game today?   

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011011500/2010/POST19/ravens@steelers/watch?module=HP_headlines#tab:watch

(2:10 into the highlights)

Yes and #93 never gave up on the play and no one was surrounding the ball just letting it roll dead.

[Mark uk]

I have seen the equivalent situation where "No. 15" did wait and pick the ball up and made 20 yards before he was tackled. Communal comment when we got back to the dressing room "Good job we didn't blow that dead".