Author Topic: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay  (Read 16283 times)

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RickKY

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Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« on: January 16, 2011, 05:31:19 PM »
I was thinking about how many rules may have been modified or introduced as a result of a particular review of relay tape.  The wrist is part of the hand or not from the Sugar and BCS games perhaps.  How about the difinition of a completed pass?  During an NFL game Saturday the replay official ruled that "the contact was simultaneous with the receivr's foot touching the ground, therefore...."  Really?  Are we getting too analytical in reviewing film that we're inadvertantly forcing the rewrite of or addition of new rules?  Do we want that?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2011, 05:44:21 PM »
Absolutely agree with you.  I still don't buy the toe-heel incompletions on sideline and endline.  There is no way we can see that minute part of the foot action on most catches.  If the foot is touching ground inbounds and  I don't see some part of the foot touching the line when the player has possession that ought to be a catch.  Just because the camera can freeze that very discrete foot action does not mean it should now be an incompletion if the camera sees the heel come down on the line after the toe has touched inbounds.  But now we have ARs addressing this very issue.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 05:46:43 PM »
IR certainly adds to precision, but does it really enhance the game?

Offline zebra99

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 06:23:39 PM »
IR certainly adds to precision, but does it really enhance the game?
In my opinion YES - Sure there are nuances and seemingly nit-picky IR situations but just think of the many obvious missed calls by on field officials (myself included) which were corrected by IR thus avoiding big time controversy and even the wrong team winning.

If Joe Sixpack can get it right on the couch, we sure need IR to get it right in the game itself.

Offline Etref

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 06:53:57 PM »
I have never been a fan of IR but it is too late to put the genie back in the bottle.

" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 07:04:33 PM »
In my opinion YES - Sure there are nuances and seemingly nit-picky IR situations but just think of the many obvious missed calls by on field officials (myself included) which were corrected by IR thus avoiding big time controversy and even the wrong team winning.

If Joe Sixpack can get it right on the couch, we sure need IR to get it right in the game itself.
99, I don't know you, other than what I see on the tube, but I admire you for your down to earth honesty and frankness over many of the issues we bang around on this board. You are truly a voice of reason.  tiphat:
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

DD

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2011, 08:09:56 AM »
The part about the wrist being is too technical. I was at a meeting and that topic was discussed about the hand and wrist. Dean Blandino formerly over the NFL ROs, said that it was too technical to try to separate the hand from the wrist, treat them as one. Too reverse a call it must jump out at you. If you have to spend time looking and looking then the ruling on the field stands.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 09:50:26 AM »
I seem to recall a lot of the pre-IR hype, that IR would never change the way the game was officiated, just improve the results of decisions that may have been made without benefit of the best angle or unobstructed view.  It would just improve the accuracy of close plays. 

What's the actual result been?  Yes it has increased accuracy on close plays, down to the gnat's eyelash or blade of grass.  It most certainly has affected officiating with revised mechanics dictating when and how to rule on certain circumstances to avoid limiting the capabilities of IR. 

There are three levels of participants in this game; coaches, players and officials.  Where once human error was accepted as possible from any of those three, the required unbiased, instantaneous decision making of officials is regularly called into question and second guessed.  Suggesting that doesn't undermine the decision making process that has been so critical to the success of the game is naive. 

This inhuman requirement for precision is slowly creeping into the players participation in the game as well.  Minute, even microscopic stop action review is being used to determine precise responsibility for helmet contacts, which are being judged more by slow motion review than by human judgment of competent, highly trained and skilled  observers assessing intent, which for generations had been the primary deciding factor whether a "foul" had occurred.

This is a game involving 22 people moving in multiple directions within a relatively close proximity often colliding with significant force and much of deciding what they do, when they do and how they collide has always considered intent as a key factor.  Circumstances dictate the movement and where speed and ferocity are key attributes, precision of that movement has always been an acceptable casualty, as viewed and judged by other humans trained and skilled in observing movement to judge intent.

Coaches are not excluded from the added precision of today's technically advanced reviews, as they are subject to far more second guessing supported by gnat's eyelash slow motion by self impressed armchair generals who may never have been any closer to a playing surface than their couch.  Absolutely, IR greatly improves the precision of judgments, but whether it advances the game is another question.     

Offline bushman

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 02:11:41 PM »
I would like to see how many officials who work with replay think it is a good tool.
I for one think it is great. We all miss calls at every level and with the amount of media disection and reporting, getting the call right is the most important thing. Sure it has changed the game on the Div 1A level and replay still has a few bugs I think can be changed. Prior to replay, you missed a big call and then saw it on sports center after the game, now you have a tool to HELP you get it right on the field. What most don't address is the play where you got it right (more times than not) and the coach and crowd are going nuts and replay either   stands or confirms the call. Nothing shuts them up faster than a confirmed call and you usally don't hear much more from the coach.
This IS the game now, either get on board or sit on the porch. Our job is tough and the micro managing of the media is not going away, nor fans talking on the web.
My thoughts for what they are worth.

Offline RedTD

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 05:45:00 PM »
Bushman, I work with replay. Not as an on-field guy but as someone in the booth. I believe the on-field guys we work with believe in the system and are more than happy to have us there to make sure their calls are correct. For the most part, we do not change the way they officiate - albeit, there are a few times when they would probably allow the play to continue when in the past they would have shut the play down. Those instances do not occur often.
We all see the few times where replay creates controversy (irrefutable video evidence not being used as the standard) but those few times are out-shadowed by the amount of controversy avoided by having the system. Each year it gets better.
I was not a big fan of replay when it first came in but was counseled by a man I respect. He said: "Everyone has replay except the officials and we better give it to them or take it away from everyone else."
Don't think we are going to take it away from everyone else!

Offline zebra99

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 09:57:47 PM »
Bushman, I work with replay. Not as an on-field guy but as someone in the booth. I believe the on-field guys we work with believe in the system and are more than happy to have us there to make sure their calls are correct. For the most part, we do not change the way they officiate - albeit, there are a few times when they would probably allow the play to continue when in the past they would have shut the play down. Those instances do not occur often.
We all see the few times where replay creates controversy (irrefutable video evidence not being used as the standard) but those few times are out-shadowed by the amount of controversy avoided by having the system. Each year it gets better.
I was not a big fan of replay when it first came in but was counseled by a man I respect. He said: "Everyone has replay except the officials and we better give it to them or take it away from everyone else."
Don't think we are going to take it away from everyone else!

Great observation about everyone but officials had "replay" at home before the officials.  Technology is the mother of replay - When I started working at the D1A level, not all games were on TV, slo-motion was limited, certainly no personal VCRs and no more than maybe 3-4 SD only cameras.  Now it's common to have in excess of 12 HD for every game plus cutting edge, super slo-mo, zoom in, frame by frame, etc. etc.  All of this technology preceded the adoption of replay when, as said, the the whole world could tell what happened but the officials themselves.

In the old days when we kicked a call, there might by a quick clip on the 6 o'clock news but no VCR to study over and over again, youtube wasn't thought of and ESPN didn't exist - so we'd live our bad ones for maybe a day or two, mostly being ridiculed by the print media who never carry as much weight as video.

IR is here to stay - we no longer argue about the obvious misses, they get corrected by IR, we just debate the real close ones because we have the technology to do so.   Life is good!!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 10:08:52 PM by zebra99 »

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 10:14:56 PM »
I like replay for the most part.  What I don't like is when a correct call is made on the field but replay changes it. 

RickKY

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2011, 07:19:17 AM »
My original post was about what rules changes have been brought about by the use of IR.   I can think of the definition of a catch based on Rams playoff game a few years ago.  And also the tuck rule.  Granted, these have been NFL changes, but they'll make their way down the chain sooner or later.  Now will there be changes for the wrist touch?

Offline zebra99

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2011, 09:09:08 AM »
I like replay for the most part.  What I don't like is when a correct call is made on the field but replay changes it. 

happens but very, very infrequently.  I recall some stats from 2009 - I don't have them memorized but it goes something like this:

1.  just under 2 stoppages per game - average length under 1 1/2 minutes.
2.  of those stoppages - about 25% get reversed, the rest are about equal between stands and confirms
3.  of the 25% reversals, about 1 in 20 are incorrectly reversed  (just a rough estimate as there is no national review of reversals).

So only about 1 reversal for every 4 games and maybe 1 incorrect reversal every 80 games or so - not too bad.

RickKY

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2011, 09:55:56 AM »
So only about 1 reversal for every 4 games and maybe 1 incorrect reversal every 80 games or so - not too bad.

Sounds to me like IR isn't necessary. 

Grant - AR

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2011, 10:54:49 AM »
So only about 1 reversal for every 4 games and maybe 1 incorrect reversal every 80 games or so - not too bad.
Sounds to me like IR isn't necessary.  

To look at this another way (unless my math is incorrect), there are over 700 D1 football games (games that use instant replay) played each year.  Assuming that zebra99's information is correct, that means there are over 350 incorrect calls that are corrected using the instant replay process.  If our goal is to get them all correct, it seems like replay is getting us closer to that goal.  

And, bushman, you can put me under the column of those who think replay is a good tool.

Edit:  Changed number of reversals...was thinking number of games instead of number of stoppages.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 03:15:34 PM by Grant - AR »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2011, 12:34:55 PM »
When the whole idea of IR was started, I was opposed - the human element, etc.  I met with the SEC officials at the annual meeting (I was helping with their conversion of game films to DVD and distribution for the league at the time).  The vast majority of them were for it, saying it would correct their big mistakes that everyone else saw.  They didn't see is an an intrusion, they were far more interested in the call being correct that they were worried about the "embarrassment" of being overturned.  They WANTED the call to be right, and if replay helped them do that, then great, bring it on.    Some saw a side benefit of it confirming how often they were right, although this was a minor point for most.  Made me rethink.

Since then, I am in the replay booth every week, and I think it has been a godsend.  It's not perfect.  I do prefer the NFL style of showing the referee the replay and letting him make the decision rather than having a replay official have the final say, but I also understand that the cost of setting up that system in even 120 D1 stadiums is far greater than what the NFL had to do in 32 stadiums.

Is the system perfect?  Of course not.  Example:  Goal line views are rarely straight down the line and can be deceiving.  There is still inconsistency in the criteria used by replay officials (i.e., what is conclusive evidence?).  But overall, the delays are minimal, and the outcome either supports the on-field officials, or corrects their mistakes, and both of those are good things.

fbrefga

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 12:36:15 PM »
Here is my mathematical take using Grant's and zebra99's data.

700 games with 2 stoppages per game = 1400 stoppages
25% of the stoppages are reversed; so there would be 350 reversals.

With that, the average reversal would be 1 in 2 games since there are about 2 stoppages per game.


Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 02:19:14 PM »
happens but very, very infrequently.  I recall some stats from 2009 - I don't have them memorized but it goes something like this:

1.  just under 2 stoppages per game - average length under 1 1/2 minutes.
2.  of those stoppages - about 25% get reversed, the rest are about equal between stands and confirms
3.  of the 25% reversals, about 1 in 20 are incorrectly reversed  (just a rough estimate as there is no national review of reversals).

So only about 1 reversal for every 4 games and maybe 1 incorrect reversal every 80 games or so - not too bad.

I'm glad you are a better official than a mathematician!   ;)

25% reversal of 2 stoppages per game = .5 reversals per game, or one every two games.

5% of reversals are incorrect: .025 per game (5% of .5), or 1 every 40 games.

Offline RedTD

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 03:17:23 PM »
One item that is missing in all of this data is the fact that ALL plays are reviewed.  As Zebra 99 pointed out, the number of stoppages is small but the number of "decisions" made in the booth( sometimes referred to as "booth reviews") are significantly higher. Not sure if conferences keep those "booth reviews as a stat but my guess is there are probably at least 4-5 plays that get a critical review but because of a good quick replay camera angle or a delay in putting the ball back in play (commercial, etc.) there is no stoppage.

Offline Timer

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
One item that is missing in all of this data is the fact that ALL plays are reviewed.  As Zebra 99 pointed out, the number of stoppages is small but the number of "decisions" made in the booth( sometimes referred to as "booth reviews") are significantly higher. Not sure if conferences keep those "booth reviews as a stat but my guess is there are probably at least 4-5 plays that get a critical review but because of a good quick replay camera angle or a delay in putting the ball back in play (commercial, etc.) there is no stoppage.
As a Replay Official, your 4-5 plays figure is low.  Most of the time it's anywhere from 6-12.

Offline RedTD

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2011, 10:16:26 PM »
As a Replay Official, your 4-5 plays figure is low.  Most of the time it's anywhere from 6-12.

Note my post said critical reviews. I know the number of booth reviews is higher than the 4-5 I proposed but I was trying to differentiate those that were significant plays.

Offline Timer

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2011, 07:38:14 AM »
Note my post said critical reviews. I know the number of booth reviews is higher than the 4-5 I proposed but I was trying to differentiate those that were significant plays.
I stand by my statement.  These are all possible "shut down" plays.  I consider that "critical." 

DD

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 07:51:15 PM »
Critical plays in a game that is not stopped becaused you get a replay right away that confirm the ruling on the field before the next snap is called a "Confirmation". If the quick replay had not come you would have to stopped the game.  This is recorded as a "Stoppage". The Big 12 conference requires all its RO to record all their confirmations and stoppages.

Offline zebra99

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Re: Unintended Consequence of Instant Replay
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 11:24:37 AM »
Sounds to me like IR isn't necessary. 

except stoppages by rule are only in significant impact plays - so those reversals were crucial, and not infrequently, game deciding