untimed try

[ludoline]

On untimed successfull try an unspormanlike conduct by a Team player occurs during a try. The try is replayed with 15yrd penality or the point is accepted and the penality is canceled??
By the rules 8.3.3.c; 8.3.3.d; 8.3.4.a and 10.2.5.e the points are canceled and the try is replayed with 15yds penality
But on our annual clinic our trainers are used the rules 3.2.3.1 and they decline the penality and accept the point. I don't think which rules is right.
Ludoline

[Kalle]

Assuming that we are talking about a foul by team A.

With the 2010 rules the unsportmanlike conduct is a dead ball foul, so the try is good and the penalty is enforced from the succeeding spot (kickoff or next overtime series).

I'm not sure about 2011, but I think that the USC is just a normal live-ball foul, so team B will accept the penalty and the try is replayed from the B-18.

[ludoline]

Oh I'm sorry, yes it's a team A player foul.

[James]

Just to be  little nitpicky - all trys are untimed.

[El Macman]

Just to be  little nitpicky - all trys are untimed.

Yes. But they are not an "untimed down" as it relates to the use of the untimed down signal (S1*). That signal is only intended for plays in the extension of a period.

[ludoline]

OK: the time expire during the last down on a 4th period when the TD occurs the score is Team A 19 Team B 20. During a successfull 2 points try team A player is penalised for unsportmanlike conduct

[With_Two_Flakes]

Yes. But they are not an "untimed down" as it relates to the use of the untimed down signal (S1*). That signal is only intended for plays in the extension of a period.

So why does just about every official I've ever worked with give that signal during a PAT to remind everyone that the clock stays stopped?

[Etref]

So why does just about every official I've ever worked with give that signal during a PAT to remind everyone that the clock stays stopped?

I did that a long time ago but was informed at a camp about the difference. I now use only the "fourth down fumble rule signal" to alert crew of the rule which applies to tries and 4th down.

[El Macman]

So why does just about every official I've ever worked with give that signal during a PAT to remind everyone that the clock stays stopped?

You're asking me? Hell, I don't know. Ask them why they do it (when they shouldn't).

Those of us that were around when the signal first appeared know that it was put there for extensiosn of periods only. Supposedly had something to do with pressbox folks (perhaps including clock operators) not being sure what was happening down on the field (in the absence of this signal).

[Kalle]

So why does just about every official I've ever worked with give that signal during a PAT to remind everyone that the clock stays stopped?

I don't, and I cringe inwardly every time a referee uses it.

[Kalle]

OK: the time expire during the last down on a 4th period when the TD occurs the score is Team A 19 Team B 20. During a successfull 2 points try team A player is penalised for unsportmanlike conduct

2010: game over, team A wins 21-20.

2011: I think this happens: team B accepts the penalty for the live ball foul, replay the try from B-18.

[Osric Pureheart]

I have a question.  What are the negative consequences of giving the untimed down signal on a try?

[jg-me]

It would not be such a horrible crime. However, we try to be efficient and accurate when we communicate with the press box, fans and coaches. Essentially everyone knows that when a TD is scored there is going to be a try and the game clock never runs during a try. There is niether a need nor a requirement to communicate this fact. If we are going to run any other play during which the game clock is not going to operate, we need to appropriately communicate this to the rest of the world. It is an out-of-the-ordinary game situation. The untimed down signal is the designated sign language for us to utilize and extending a period is the only time it is required.

[El Macman]

I have a question.  What are the negative consequences of giving the untimed down signal on a try?

Other than ridicule by those that know better, nothing, really. But, then, what are the negative consequences of using the illegal procedure signal for offside? The offside signal for offensive encroachment? Dropping a bean bag at the spot of a muff by Team B on a free kick (onside, typically)? Using a chop AND a wind to mark the ball ready for play and start the game clock? It may not affect the game, and almost no one except officials will know the difference, but wrong, nonetheless.
The signal first appeared in 1994 (not as long ago as as I thought). As I said before, it was put in to help pressbox folks know what's going on when there is to be a play in an extended period. They may wonder why the teams aren't moving to the other end of the field. This signal will give them the reason, if they know the signal, or bother to look it up in the chart.

Anybody that is confused about what is happening when there is to be a try just needs to get out their make-up bag and freshen their lipstick.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Essentially everyone knows that when a TD is scored there is going to be a try and the game clock never runs during a try. There is niether a need nor a requirement to communicate this fact.

...and anywhere in the USA, I would agree that is a true statement.

Elsewhere in the World where there isn't quite the same understanding of football and the game clock is being kept on the field, perhaps by a rookie LJ running it for the first time, then giving that signal can be a sensible precaution.

[El Macman]

...and anywhere in the USA, I would agree that is a true statement.

...perhaps by a rookie LJ running it for the first time, ...

Completely understandable that you'd want/need some extra communication in such a situation. But, rather than use an "official" signal improperly, I suggest you develop some informal method of communicating that info among the crew, i.e., crossed wrists; point to your watch and give a very small "incomplete" signal with just your hands; or simply verbally communicate - "The clock will not run!"

[Kalle]

Elsewhere in the World where there isn't quite the same understanding of football and the game clock is being kept on the field, perhaps by a rookie LJ running it for the first time, then giving that signal can be a sensible precaution.

I would think it much easier to impress upon the rookie clock operator (be it in the stands or on the field) that the game clock never runs on tries than it is to teach a new signal to him. I wouldn't worry about the extension of periods thing, if it happens and if the operator manages to start a new quarter clock, just have him reset the clock afterwards.