Football Cuts Article...This is going to be bad

[Coby]

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/04/06/2981080/high-school-football-feels-first.html

[Etref]

IMHO, a lot of other useless crap that could be cut first.........................

[TexDoc]

"Keller High School has had seven football teams for the past nine years."

That's just ridiculous.  All you ever need is a varsity, one JV, and two freshman teams, and maybe a sophomore team.   

[rickref]

This is as expected and probably needed. I agree for a big school 5 is about the most you need.

[TXMike]

Easy to say Doc, if you are in podunk  Bandera, but they have 2800 kids at Keller.  

There is a cost benefit analysis that needs to be done.  Since they are saving $800,000 by taking away the ability to participate from 1,000 students, that means they are saving $80 per.  Are the the benfits of extracurricular activity worth $80 per kid?  That is the question that needs to be asked.

[Welpe]

Easy to say Doc, if you are in podunk  Bandera, but they have 2800 kids at Keller.

We more than that at my high school and only had 3 football teams.  Freshman, JV and Varsity.  Nobody was ever cut from the teams either.

Seven teams is over the top.

I'm probably going to get tarred and feathered on this forum for this but there are a lot of very good extracurricular activities in schools other than athletics. Sports should not be the golden cow that is never, ever touched.

OK Nomex suit is on...

[Coby]

Easy to say Doc, if you are in podunk  Bandera, but they have 2800 kids at Keller.  

There is a cost benefit analysis that needs to be done.  Since they are saving $800,000 by taking away the ability to participate from 1,000 students, that means they are saving $80 per.  Are the the benfits of extracurricular activity worth $80 per kid?  That is the question that needs to be asked.

I am doing my research for my doctorate on a quantatative approach to placing a value on athletics participation at the high school level.  Translation: comparing athletes to non athletes with regards to GPA, SAT, TAKS test etc.  My one conclusion from my lit review is that there is no data on academic benefit of athletic participation at the high school level.  Plenty of qualatative data on leadership, respect, and time management, but nothing that can be truly measured.
Further Translation:  The UIL or any school district has never thought to measure the value added of athletics participation to academic performance.

Will keep everyone informed.  Just PM me if you would like me to further explain everything.

[TexDoc]

Easy to say Doc, if you are in podunk  Bandera, but they have 2800 kids at Keller.  

There is a cost benefit analysis that needs to be done.  Since they are saving $800,000 by taking away the ability to participate from 1,000 students, that means they are saving $80 per.  Are the the benfits of extracurricular activity worth $80 per kid?  That is the question that needs to be asked.

Mike, my freshman year of high school I attending a school with 3600 students.  We had 2 freshmen teams, a JV and a varsity.  We somehow survived.

[TXMike]

In those days kids got exercise in many ways apart from school.  Nowadays, that may be the only exercise they get.
Were there kids who wanted to play but we were not allowed as there were not enough teams? 


Someone way smarter than most of us figured out that extracurricular had positive effects.

[JKS]

I think one thing some of you are missing is what Coach Heath said.  Some kids on a 5A team may never play, but they are a part of something.  It keeps them engaged.  I remember several years ago we did a Spring game at a large 5A school and the coach told us he didn't play his starters too much, but the juniors (seniors to be) who would not get playing time in the fall would get most of the snaps.  Coaches had the usual beer bet going and the game was competitive and fun.  Those kids were a part of something larger than themselves and though might have been on the Freshman C team they were part of the experience.  Sad if those kids were cut from the team because of cuts.  Remember, football is a game and that Freshman C game is the varsity game for those kids, parents, and grandparents.

[Coby]

I think one thing some of you are missing is what Coach Heath said.  Some kids on a 5A team may never play, but they are a part of something.  It keeps them engaged.  I remember several years ago we did a Spring game at a large 5A school and the coach told us he didn't play his starters too much, but the juniors (seniors to be) who would not get playing time in the fall would get most of the snaps.  Coaches had the usual beer bet going and the game was competitive and fun.  Those kids were a part of something larger than themselves and though might have been on the Freshman C team they were part of the experience.  Sad if those kids were cut from the team because of cuts.  Remember, football is a game and the that Freshman C game is the varsity game for those kids, parents, and grandparents.

I never got to play outside of scrimmages and blowouts.  Coach knew I officiated basketball games so one day when an official did not show up for the freshman game guess who he told to go officiate that game.  I guess I did a horrible job because my same coach is still at my high school and has not picked me for a varsity game in the 5 years I have had a crew    Or it could be that he has ethics.

The point is you have no idea what a bench warmer is getting out of participation which is what high school is all about and these cuts will SUCK.

[TexDoc]

Bottom line, if you have to choose between an academic teacher and a coaching position, I think the choice is very clear.

[tow]

Isn't football in Texas similar to the NCAA,where revenue sports finance the athelitic dept? One would think that with the big crowds games get,they could finance the dept,and let school board focus on the education side, just wondering?

[TXMike]

Nope. Even football can't pay for all the other sports. It is a mistake to ignore that extracurricular is a big part of the academic process

[T.C. Welton]

Easy to say Doc, if you are in podunk  Bandera, but they have 2800 kids at Keller.  

There is a cost benefit analysis that needs to be done.  Since they are saving $800,000 by taking away the ability to participate from 1,000 students, that means they are saving $80 per.  Are the the benfits of extracurricular activity worth $80 per kid?  That is the question that needs to be asked.

If the school districts are going to treat this as a business from here on out, then this is certainly the appropriate thing to do.  In my mind, $80/student is well worth the cost of giving these kids another means of assistance in keeping them on a track of raising quality adults.  I am a strong believer that parents should raise kids, not schools.  However, any outside positive influence is a positive one.  The next question...is football a positive influence...

[Arbitrator]

  The next question...is football a positive influence...

 

That, indeed, is a very subjective question subject to a lot of individual interpretation. The school district administrative bean counters could give a tinkers damn on whether football is a positive influence or not. Their main querry is primarily if the sport can pay for itself or is deemed to be a profit center as opposed to being a cost center. To them: nothing more, nothing less!   

[ETXZebra]

The drop-out rate will increase, simply because athletics is the only thing keeping some kids in school.

[Arbitrator]

The drop-out rate will increase, simply because athletics is the only thing keeping some kids in school.

 

The sad, but true fact is that those bean counters don't really care if those kids drop out or not. So long as their job is deemed to be safe... well, that's all they really have to worry about!   

[blindref757]

I think that we are certainly headed towards a "pay to play" system as money continues to get tighter.  Personally, I feel like we are just beginning this budget crunch.  I think things are going to get A LOT worse and that this is just the first step. 

That being said, if we are going to keep the same interscholastic system where Dallas plays Houston, the UIL is going to have to get on the fast track on how these teams can survive financially.  Some of those restrictions are going to have to be revamped so that athletics isn't only for the kids in the suburbs.

Either that, or we are going to see Pop Warner expand into JH and HS ages and a lot of teams drop athletics all together.

[Coby]

Bottom line, if you have to choose between an academic teacher and a coaching position, I think the choice is very clear.

Very Clear... Please Explain?

As much as we as officials think coaches are not that bright we are way underestimating the number of idiot teachers out there.

All coaches have to teach something (Except AD's).  In general coaches understand kids and how to motivate/reach them more then teachers do.  Because coaches move around so much they dont build up any tenure and the english teacher that has been there since the school was built gets a lot of tenure and therefore becomes LAZY/Obsolete.  These are all GENERALITIES.

The problem with coaches is that their professional organizations THSCA/UIL etc.  Does nothing to track a coaches value as a teacher.  Therefore they become very easy targets for school boards and principals that dont understand the value of coaches that teach.  I fcoaches would start to keep documentation on everything it would go a long way.

The fact of the matter is the 3-5k extra that a coach receives for coaching is a bargain for all of the extra hours they put in.

[TexDoc]

Very Clear... Please Explain?

As much as we as officials think coaches are not that bright we are way underestimating the number of idiot teachers out there.

All coaches have to teach something (Except AD's).  In general coaches understand kids and how to motivate/reach them more then teachers do.  Because coaches move around so much they dont build up any tenure and the english teacher that has been there since the school was built gets a lot of tenure and therefore becomes LAZY/Obsolete.  These are all GENERALITIES.

The problem with coaches is that their professional organizations THSCA/UIL etc.  Does nothing to track a coaches value as a teacher.  Therefore they become very easy targets for school boards and principals that dont understand the value of coaches that teach.  I fcoaches would start to keep documentation on everything it would go a long way.

The fact of the matter is the 3-5k extra that a coach receives for coaching is a bargain for all of the extra hours they put in.

I am not arguing the value of a coach nor their intelligence.  My father coached for many years so I am well aware of the hours they put in.  But I also know that many of those hours are a waste.  I've seen it.

If you are sitting on a school board and you have to make the tough decisions concerning budgets, are you going to simply not cut athletics but cut teachers at the elementary level and make class sizes larger?  There is no reason any team in Texas needs 20 coaches on the sidelines for football, period.  Yes, the stipend they receive is paltry for the hours they put in, but you cannot argue that smaller class sizes are less important than how many coaches you have.  It has to do with priorities.

I will also never believe that any high school needs more than 3 or 4 sub varsity teams.  

[Coby]

I am not arguing the value of a coach nor their intelligence.  My father coached for many years so I am well aware of the hours they put in.  But I also know that many of those hours are a waste.  I've seen it.

If you are sitting on a school board and you have to make the tough decisions concerning budgets, are you going to simply not cut athletics but cut teachers at the elementary level and make class sizes larger?  There is no reason any team in Texas needs 20 coaches on the sidelines for football, period.  Yes, the stipend they receive is paltry for the hours they put in, but you cannot argue that smaller class sizes are less important than how many coaches you have.  It has to do with priorities.

I will also never believe that any high school needs more than 3 or 4 sub varsity teams. 

You are making 2 seperate statements here.

Your orginal statement of academic teacher or coaching position is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

I agree 100% that no one needs 20 coaches even if half of them are paid through the booster club.  No school needs more then 4 teams.

If I am sitting on a school board and I look at value added and I see it cost me $60000 for 10 coaches to go above and beyond their teaching time to spend on average 12 extra hours a week for 11 months a year servicing 350 student athletes or I can spend that $60,000 so my 3rd grade can go from a teacher to student ratio of 1::28 to 1::24.  I believe there is more overall value in keeping the coaching stipends and the value they add.

Should athletics take their proportional cut absolutely... Everyone is going to feel the effect.

[Joe Stack]

The interesting thing is that the B and C games I have done in the last few years are generally well attended. If the $700 a game expense quoted in the article is anywhere near the truth, a $4 admission price gets you there with 175 people. We've easily had that many in the stands.

The B teams won't go anywhere. The C and sophomore teams might, however.

[bama_stripes]

Since they are saving $800,000 by taking away the ability to participate from 1,000 students, that means they are saving $80 per.  Are the the benfits of extracurricular activity worth $80 per kid?  That is the question that needs to be asked.

Is it your math or your typing that's off by a factor of 10?   

[Getting Fat]

Is it your math or your typing that's off by a factor of 10?   

Getting shown up in mathematics by an Alabama guy reminds of the time I lost in golf to a guy with one arm.