teams chanting/cheering on bench sideline

[deygenlake@sbcglobal.net]

I have a question for someone or anyone with knowledge about the rules addressing the following situation.  I have a son that plays u9 academy soccer.  they play 6v6 and there are 4 subs.  today at his match the 4 subs were chanting/cheering for their teammates.  the ref came over and said they were very distracting and they would have to stop.  one of the parents approached the ref regarding this matter and he said "i should have given them a yellow card and in high school it's a red card."  now i know a lot of the rules but this one must have passed me by somewhere along the line.  can someone please tell me the rule over this situation.  seriously i'm thinking this rule, if it exists, should be thrown out.  you can't cheer your own teammates on?  how are you supposed to get them fired up and help root them on if you can't do this.  signed, seriously puzzled

[TXMike]

You might get some. answers here but you would be better served going to a soccer forum, not an American football forum.

[AlUpstateNY]

You might also consider what your son is learning about fairness of competition.  It's one thing to support the effort of your team, but an entirely different matter to do so to the extent it adversely affects the actual competition and playing of whatever the game is being contested.  

"Spectators" are there to watch the teams compete, not intefere or affect the actual competition.  In some circles it sadly appears to be acceptable, but no matter how hard you try and excuse, cover up or tolerate obnoxious behavior, it's still just obnoxious, and once begun will ALWAYS get worse.  I can't say there's a bright line separating enthusiastic support from obnoxious behavior, but it's a line everyone interested in watching whatever sport you follow being a pleasant experience, for BOTH teams and ALL who are supportive (of either team) needs to be conscious of and be willing to shun.

I don't think we have any greater number of jerks and fools, but way too many if us seem intimidated and coerced by these a-holes to point out to them how annoying they are.  If the only way you can enjoy watching a competitive sport, is to play the fool and try and inject yourself into the action to impact your competitor's chances, do everyone including your team, who is likely embarrassed by your antics, a favor and stay home.

[HLinNC]

There are a myriad of soccer organizations- some national, some international, some state, some local.  You would be better served by asking this question of your local entity first.  There may be a rule or it could be a grumpy soccer official for all we know.

[Grant - AR]

You might also consider what your son is learning about fairness of competition.  It's one thing to support the effort of your team, but an entirely different matter to do so to the extent it adversely affects the actual competition and playing of whatever the game is being contested.  

"Spectators" are there to watch the teams compete, not intefere or affect the actual competition.  In some circles it sadly appears to be acceptable, but no matter how hard you try and excuse, cover up or tolerate obnoxious behavior, it's still just obnoxious, and once begun will ALWAYS get worse.  I can't say there's a bright line separating enthusiastic support from obnoxious behavior, but it's a line everyone interested in watching whatever sport you follow being a pleasant experience, for BOTH teams and ALL who are supportive (of either team) needs to be conscious of and be willing to shun.

I don't think we have any greater number of jerks and fools, but way too many if us seem intimidated and coerced by these a-holes to point out to them how annoying they are.  If the only way you can enjoy watching a competitive sport, is to play the fool and try and inject yourself into the action to impact your competitor's chances, do everyone including your team, who is likely embarrassed by your antics, a favor and stay home.

You lost me here, Al.  He asked about a something a soccer official told him about cheering on teammates.  You answered with a long diatribe about fairness of competition, spectators, etc. when none of that was ever brought up by the one who answered the question.  I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about soccer rules, but I'd be surprised to hear that it was against them to cheer/chant for your teammates.  Unless I'm missing something, we aren't talking about taunting the other team.

deygenlake@sbcglobal.net, welcome to the forum.  As TXMike stated, this is actually an American football forum, but there are a handful of soccer officials on here too.  I see that you also posted your question in the Soccer forum.  It might take a little while to get it answered, but I'll ask a couple of friends who are soccer officials to see if they are willing to chime in with an answer.  You might also do as HLinNC suggested.  With this being u9, there is probably a good chance there are some "local" rules for the league.

[AlUpstateNY]

You lost me here, Al.    Unless I'm missing something, we aren't talking about taunting the other team.

Perhaps youre missing something because you got lost.  Maybe I wasn't reading the same question, but I thought the original question included the observation, "the ref came over and said they were very distracting and they would have to stop".  Maybe things are different in soccer, but for any official to go out of his way to make such a comment, might suggest that the comments being made were somewhat excessive, maybe even taunting.

The tone of the question sounded, at least to me, like the parent was a lot more concerned about, "firing up teammates" and was looking for some justification for doing so, which would be fine AS LONG AS things didn't get out of control, which can happen sometimes when the adults present lose sight of the overall picture of schoilastic competition.  I don't think I got anywhere near a "diatribe" and merely reminded an interested adult about what his primary focus might be.  As I thought WE ALL understand, in the officiating business, "an ounce of prevention is absolutely worth a pound of cure", and trying to cut things as close to the line as possible can be problematic.

[jjseikel]

You lost me here, Al.  He asked about a something a soccer official told him about cheering on teammates.  You answered with a long....

Ditto!

[HLinNC]

I am an AYSO local board member.  I am not a soccer official.  I did take the basic class but probably forgot most of it.

 The AYSO creed is Players Play-Coaches Coach-Parent Cheer.  I know of no national rule that says you can't cheer on your teammates.  We don't have it and its not in FIFA's Laws of the Game.  That's not to say there can't be some local rule or be a different association.

Having to deal with parents regularly, this can also be the OP's perspective of what he thought the official said.  Center refs have a lot of authority and what little training I received I did learn that they have a lot of discretion in how they work a game.

Who knows, maybe he had a migraine and was tired of listening to 8 year olds yelling.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

As with anything, there are at least two sides to every story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

The original post says that they were "chanting/cheering for their teammates". Based on that statement alone, I don't see anything wrong with it. Based on that statement, there does not seem to be any taunting. The original post was about teammates cheering for teamates, and makes no mention of spectators that I saw, other than the ref commenting to one that he should have given them a yellow card, which in my opinion is inappropriate. The official does not need to respond to parents like that, he or she should address it with the coach or game management. When he or she says he should have done something in a situation like that, it causes more problems than it solves.

Al, while I see your point, I don't think it really addresses the issue that this post was about, unless you are including substitutes as spectators, which I don't think is correct. I do agree that the official has the right and the duty to control the game, but based on the information in the original post,(including the official's comment to a parent) it is hard to make the jump that there was anything excessive about the cheering, and I am led to believe that it was perhaps an inexperienced (or grumpy as HLinNC said) official going somewhat overboard.

But we do not know the official's side. Was there a request from the other team that the cheering/chanting be addressed? Or was it only the official that was distracted? Are there rules in place that address this situation? In high school football (at least in my area) we as officials can require the head coach of a team to quiet the marching band if they are playing during the snap count while the opposing team has the ball. Though this is not a perfect example, since  the opposing coach has to request it and the band members are, in fact, spectators rather than participants or substitutes. (Not to mention, there isn't a snap count in soccer).

I would imagine that the cheering/chanting was at least encouraged by the adult spectators and perhaps coaches present, but from the information available, it did not seem mean-spirited. and they were cheering FOR their team rather than AGAINST the other. And again, this was directed at the substitutes cheering, not the spectators.

My suggestion would be to address this issue with the league or athletic association governing the game to see if there are rules that address it. Since the situation involved 9yr olds rather than older kids,  there very well may be, in which case the official was well within his duty in his actions, but based on the information available, it does not sound like he handled it as effectively as he could or should have.

[Grant - AR]

Perhaps youre missing something because you got lost.  Maybe I wasn't reading the same question, but I thought the original question included the observation, "the ref came over and said they were very distracting and they would have to stop".  Maybe things are different in soccer, but for any official to go out of his way to make such a comment, might suggest that the comments being made were somewhat excessive, maybe even taunting.

The tone of the question sounded, at least to me, like the parent was a lot more concerned about, "firing up teammates" and was looking for some justification for doing so, which would be fine AS LONG AS things didn't get out of control, which can happen sometimes when the adults present lose sight of the overall picture of schoilastic competition.  I don't think I got anywhere near a "diatribe" and merely reminded an interested adult about what his primary focus might be.  As I thought WE ALL understand, in the officiating business, "an ounce of prevention is absolutely worth a pound of cure", and trying to cut things as close to the line as possible can be problematic.

I just feel like you assumed a lot of things that weren't in the original post.  Prevention is almost always good, but I've seen quite a few officials stop things based on perceived prevention that they shouldn't have stepped into. 

[AlUpstateNY]

Are some of you serious?  Your first assumption GAHSUMPIRE is, "I am led to believe that it was perhaps an inexperienced (or grumpy as HLinNC said) official going somewhat overboard.".  Forgive me for assuming this was NOT the first game that "ref" ever worked, or that he might have known, actually,  exactly what he was doing, and whatever "he heard" being said was actually, "very distracting and they would have to stop".

Forgive me, but rather than simply throw that "ref" under the nearest bus, I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt and presume whatever he heard being said had gone too far and he wanted to tone things down.

As for assumptions, I've re-read the original post and I just can't find anything to support, "I would imagine that the cheering/chanting was at least encouraged by the adult spectators and perhaps coaches present, but from the information available, it did not seem mean-spirited. and they were cheering FOR their team rather than AGAINST the other. And again, this was directed at the substitutes cheering, not the spectators.".  I did understand, however, that whatever was being said, in the opinion of the covering official, had apparently crossed over the line and he was advising some players to simply tone it down. 

I don't know how things are where you work, but where I work, if I think something or someone has crossed the line I draw I don't need anyone's approaval or agreement to say or do what I believe might be necessary to correct it.  I can assure you that the officials I work with will not hesitate in covering my back.  We automatically trust each other's judgment in such matters, until proven otherwise.

Again, Maybe it's a territorial thing, but 9 year old smart BUTT kids, who cross the line of acceptable behavior, and are not corrected by their parents or coaches, do not have license to say whatever they want as long as they want on any playing field we're responsible for.

[Grant - AR]

I don't want to talk for GAHSUMPIRE, but based on the posts above, I think we are picturing a completely different scenario than Al here.  I'm picturing a situation where some players on the sideline are making a lot of noise by cheering for their teammates.  I feel like Al is picturing something that is obviously against the rules and needs to be stopped.  So, I think we are talking about two different scenarios and could definitely both be correct.

In the area where I work, it is VERY common for officials to be rookies in every sport for children this young.  In fact, there would be a good chance the official might actually be a high school or college student in the area with almost no experience and little or no training.  But, no matter the level of the official, I can't imagine a scenario in a game where the players would be so "annoying" that an official would need to step in.  I don't know soccer rules, but I haven't been able to find anything in the football rule book prohibiting players from being annoying.  One thing I immediately thought of was infield "chatter" that we hear at kids' baseball games.  Yes, it is very annoying and it's aimed at the other team, but I've never seen or heard from an umpire that thinks it should be stopped.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Al,you may very well be correct. As I said in my original post, we don't have both sides of the story, and based on the information available, I formulated my opinion. In doing so, I committed the cardinal sin of disagreeing with you. If that means earning your condemnation, then I guess I will just have to live with that.

You may be correct. The official in the original post may have had many years of experience, and known exactly what he was doing. I just don't know a lot of experienced officials that would say to a parent what he is reported to have said.

What he heard may have actually been very distracting. But distracting to whom? What I said was I did not know if it was against the rules in this game to be distracting.

According to the original post, "the ref came over and said they were very distracting and they would have to stop". I don't read that as telling them to "tone it down". To me, that is an overreaction.

You say you can't find anything to support my suggestion that they were cheering for their teammates. I would submit this from the original post "today at his match the 4 subs were chanting/cheering for their teammates".

Again you said  "he was advising some players to simply tone it down". Based on what was written in the original post, that was not how I interpreted it. Telling them to stop doesn't sound like the same thing as toning it down. But maybe that's just me.

Your statement:" if I think something or someone has crossed the line I draw I don't need anyone's approaval or agreement to say or do what I believe might be necessary to correct it.  I can assure you that the officials I work with will not hesitate in covering my back.  We automatically trust each other's judgment in such matters, until proven otherwise".

I agree 100%. Whether I agree with the other official's call or not, I will support the official to the public.That does not mean I have to agree with his call. I would at the very least question his judgment based on his dealing with parents, however.

There is nothing in the original post to suggest that these were "smart BUTT kids". They are 8 or 9 year olds excited to be involved in the game.

Your interpretation may be correct. But would you agree that there is even the slightest possibility that the way you read it may not be correct? Officials do deserve the benefit of the doubt, but are not infallible. Based on the information as I read it the official acted improperly. You disagree. I can live with that.

[AlUpstateNY]

Al,you may very well be correct. As I said in my original post, we don't have both sides of the story, and based on the information available, I formulated my opinion. In doing so, I committed the cardinal sin of disagreeing with you. If that means earning your condemnation, then I guess I will just have to live with that.

There is nothing in the original post to suggest that these were "smart BUTT kids". They are 8 or 9 year olds excited to be involved in the game.

Your interpretation may be correct. But would you agree that there is even the slightest possibility that the way you read it may not be correct? Officials do deserve the benefit of the doubt, but are not infallible. Based on the information as I read it the official acted improperly. You disagree. I can live with that.  

There may be a lot of room for interpretation on either side of the original posting, which is why I started my response with, “You might also consider what your son is learning about fairness of competition.  It's one thing to support the effort of your team, but an entirely different matter to do so to the extent it adversely affects the actual competition and playing of whatever the game is being contested”, which was intended as a gentle, wide-open suggestion.

Understanding I was speaking to a parent, rather than another official, I was trying to suggest that the habits 8-9 year old athletes learn often stay with them as they progress, and can become either more stabilizing or more problematic at a later age.

I didn’t accuse anyone for being out of line, rather tried to suggest the dangers of allowing things to go over the line.  In this instance, which I read as being appropriately proactive, a game official felt it necessary to speak to the players and advise them to “tone it down”.  I would think, rather than question an official’s authority to issue such a request, a parent would be thankful a responsible adult was advising the players that they were treading on unsafe ground.  

As is my habit, with absolutely no evidence to the contrary, I chose to assume the official is competent, reasonable and observed something he was not comfortable with.  It sounds like he wisely chose the path of least involvement simply instructing the players to “tone it down”.

Knowing precious little about soccer rules, I presume there is little detail as to the expected civility players are expected to extend to each other, and like football, that is something for the most part left up to the maturity and experience of the game officials to monitor and control, especially at the earlier ages.

Disagreeing with any assessment is no sin at all and raising counter arguments is how we all gain opportunity to consider different viewpoints, which we can each chose to either accept or ignore.  I do feel a responsibility, absent evidence to the contrary, to begin by extending the benefit of the doubt, in most situations, to fellow officials.