How bout this one

[Jackhammer]

4th and 9, Scrimmage kick is muffed by R, in the scramble for loose ball, R grabs K around the waist to keep k from recovering.  Flag is thrown for holding.  Second K player comes in on top of ball and is laying on it, but he doesn't control the ball. Official blows whistle.

What ya got?

[Ump33]

Since the ball was never posessed by R or K, it is still a kick and the down was ended by an Inadvertent Whistle. K has the option to enforce the Holding against R using PSK enforcement or the down is replayed per 4-2-3.

[James]

You can't have PSKE unless R has possession of the ball at the end of the down.
So from your description, nothing to do but take it back and rekick.

It took me a while to get a mental image of someone on the ball but not in control.

[golfingref]

Kick never ended with the muff or player laying on the ball but not controlling it. Only option is to replay the down.

[Ump33]

You can't have PSKE unless R has possession of the ball at the end of the down.
So from your description, nothing to do but take it back and rekick.

It took me a while to get a mental image of someone on the ball but not in control.

Recheck the requirements for PSK Fouls/Enforcement ... it says nothing about R having possesion at the end of the down.

According to the OP, the kick was not possessed by R or K and the ball was loose when the IW "ended the down" (and kick). Under normal IW procedure during a kick, we would replay the down (4-2-3a). However, we now have a penalty to consider and if accepted, it will take precedence over inadvertent whistle administration (4-2-3d).

The foul by R happened beyond the expanded neutral zone, before the kick ended and K will not be next to put the ball in play. PSK requirements are satisfied. The end of the kick is the "IW spot" and the foul is enforced from the spot of the foul if behind the end of the kick. If the foul is beyond the the end of the kick, enforce from the end of the kick.

"You can't have PSKE unless R has possession of the ball at the end of the down." Something to think about ... Does R have possession of the ball at the end of the down if; the kick goes out of bounds, the kick is downed by K or the kick ends in a touchback?

[mbyron]

Something to think about ... Does R have possession of the ball at the end of the down if; the kick goes out of bounds, the kick is downed by K or the kick ends in a touchback?

Very good: this comment is a useful reminder of why the PSK requirement is "K will not be next to put the ball in play" rather than "R is in possession at the end of the down," and that these formulations are not equivalent. 2-16-2h

[Jackhammer]

This came up at our area meeting tonight.

The crew that described it waved off the hold and administered the IW.  Reasoning for waving off the hold was an old "axiom" of:  You can do just about anything to get at a loose ball.

Points out these old axioms, like this and enforcing the penalty based on "what hurts worst" gets you in trouble.

I knew the hold shouldn't been waved off, but missed the PSK aspect of this....I just couldn't get myself to feel right about giving K a first down, which is what you'd have without a PSK enforcement.

Thanks.

[ckref]

With the IW, K IS next to put the ball in play.  PSK does not apply, making this a previous spot foul during a loose ball play.  Very creative to wave off the flag and go with the IW.

[mbyron]

With the IW, K IS next to put the ball in play.  PSK does not apply, making this a previous spot foul during a loose ball play.  Very creative to wave off the flag and go with the IW.

The IW provision is subject to an accepted penalty and does not trump PSK.

[Ump33]

With the IW, K IS next to put the ball in play.  PSK does not apply, making this a previous spot foul during a loose ball play.  Very creative to wave off the flag and go with the IW.

6-2-7 … When any scrimmage kick is out of bounds between the goal lines or becomes dead inbounds between the goal lines while no player is in possession, or inbounds anywhere while opponents are in joint possession, the ball is awarded to R. Following an out-of-bounds kick, the ball is put in play at the inbounds spot unless R chooses a spot of first touching

[ckref]

check case 4.2.3.E - previous spot enforcement.

I don't understand how the kick oob rule applies to this situation.

[Ump33]

check case 4.2.3.E - previous spot enforcement.

I don't understand how the kick oob rule applies to this situation.

Thanks for the csae play, I stand corrected.

[mbyron]

check case 4.2.3.E - previous spot enforcement.

I don't understand how the kick oob rule applies to this situation.

The "kick oob rule" does not apply to this situation.

Apparently the enforcement  here is governed by a special provision: 10-4-2c states that the basic spot is the previous spot when an inadvertent whistle sounds during a legal kick. I did not know that.

I suppose this provision keeps it simple and more or less fair: IW's often occur when a fair catch has been muffed, so there's a good chance K could recover and PSK would be off.

[Wingman]

With the IW, K IS next to put the ball in play.  PSK does not apply, making this a previous spot foul during a loose ball play.  Very creative to wave off the flag and go with the IW.

But in this case... the flag *isn't* waved off.. the IW is what is ignored.

Something I've had tattooed on the back of my eyelids comes from the Redding guide.. "the best thing that can happen to an official who blows his whistle prematurely is for there to be a foul on the play and the penalty is accepted."

That's just what K will do.. accept the holding penalty from the previous spot since that's where the basic spot is per 10-4-2-c.  Since the OP said 4th and 9..  it will be 1st down for K.

[ckref]

This is our worst time for the IW since what would have likely been a PSK foul becomes a previous spot foul.  Whenever I have a different BJ, I remind them that it's not our whistle that protects the receiver who has given the fair catch signal, wait and make sure it is caught.  K has to see the signal and stop.