Big East Admits Error in Syracuse Win

[TXMike]

And now the MAC says (correctly)...what's done is done

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/26/no-recourse-to-reverse-outcome-of-toledo-syracuse-game/

[cincybearcat]

Oh my, it gets worse..now Toledo wants the game result overturned

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/toledo-complains-about-extra-point-wrongly-awarded-to-syracuse-in-its-ot-win-over-rockets/2011/09/26/gIQAbZ7wyK_story.html

You stay classy Toledo

[cincybearcat]

Mark me in the camp that thinks suspensions serve no purpose, if an official doesn't have the ability to officiate at the level that he is at, he/she should be let go.  Although I wouldn't doubt that a suspension would happen here, if for no other reason than a head being served on a platter to the wonderful world of sports media.

[TXMike]

Late-20's/early-30's. His 1st year in the Big East and at least 5 years previous experience in NCAA football.  Was this the B or the F's call?

[JasonTX]

Late-20's/early-30's. His 1st year in the Big East and at least 5 years previous experience in NCAA football.  Was this the B or the F's call?

I was thinking it was the B, just based upon him standing next to the R during the review.

[Wing4Life]

Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

[JasonTX]

Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

I think that is why most here are not being too critical of the on field official.  I think the replay official is the one in the most hot water.  Having been under a post before in both high school and college, as most here have as well, when a kick is that close to the post I can easliy see how a blink of an eye can cause you to miss it.  You get several looks at replay so "blinking an eye" can not be used as a reason to miss it upstairs.  My reason for speaking of the youthful look of the B, was more aimed at the fact that a lot of officials are put into this level when they may not be ready.  The pressure can get to them at times.  As pointed out, that would not be the case here being that he has several years at this level.

[Atlanta Blue]

Sorry, but if you are going to take the big assignments with your games on TV, you have to expect criticism.  I don't think anyone's criticism has been unfair.  "The Long Blue Line" doesn't and shouldn't exist, if an official makes a critical error, then fairly criticizing him for it is not out of line.

This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point.  Whether you want to call it a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved.

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".

[Diablo]

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".

What sort of sideline view does replay get?  is the camera usually close to the endline, goalline, or what?

[TXMike]

Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

  i think the majority wants to wait to hear all the facts before making any critical comments.  Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important.  And I believe that is even more important than "supporting" the calling official.  But, as usually is the case, I doubt we will ever know what led to the miss.  Sometimes it is a chain of events and the chain can be studied to help any of us prevent a repeat performance. 

[bama_stripes]

Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important. 

Well put, Mike.  I don't think anyone here revels in a brother official's mistake.

[Diablo]

Was there something the on-field official  can offer that can help others from repeating the mistake?  That is what is important.  And I believe that is even more important than "supporting" the calling official. 

Spot On, Mate.
On the surface, this particular determination is one of the easiest calls during a game.  There is zero movement by the calling officials.  The players are bunched together as opposed to spread out over the lot.  The live-ball action is very short and produces minimal distraction.  Yet the call has very significant impact to the game - points on/off the scoreboard.

I'm hoping we can learn how/why the F & RO ruled incorrectly.  If so, it will appear in BOLD type in my pregame.

[zebra99]

Sorry, but if you are going to take the big assignments with your games on TV, you have to expect criticism.  I don't think anyone's criticism has been unfair.  "The Long Blue Line" doesn't and shouldn't exist, if an official makes a critical error, then fairly criticizing him for it is not out of line.

This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point.  Whether you want to call it a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved.

Yes, replay should have bailed him out, and the replay official (who apparently focused on the sideline view) deserves an even bigger "punishment".

gotta disagree with you Atlanta on this one.  To suggest "This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point" is reaching that conclusion only from the outcome or result, something that I submit goes too far on this type of play.  I can assure you I have missed big calls yet was concentrating as much as humanly possible.  It's simply the nature of our avocation.   

Don't know if you have experience under an upright but it's not as easy as it appears.  Those kicks come at you very fast and following the exact flight of the ball can be very difficult - looking up into lights or the sun can instantaneously blind you.

Now is it a miss?  of course.  Is it, as you say, worthy  of  " ... a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved." - absolutely not unless there is a pattern, or as has been said before, if there's a need to feed the media and the losing team.

If this occurs in a nothing game in the first quarter, would you be arguing for a suspension?  No - because you would not have heard about it.

Let's not let game circumstances control the disciplinary action.  The "mistake" by the official is exactly the same no matter when and under what circumstances it occurs.

As to the IR folks - I have no experience in the booth so have no basis to comment one way or the other.

[Atlanta Blue]

gotta disagree with you Atlanta on this one.  To suggest "This was a severe lack of concentration at a critical point" is reaching that conclusion only from the outcome or result, something that I submit goes too far on this type of play.  I can assure you I have missed big calls yet was concentrating as much as humanly possible.  It's simply the nature of our avocation.

I am not suggesting that calls can’t be missed while still concentrating.  But those are calls that require you to process and make judgments that depend on your training and experience.  Deciding if a ball went to the left or right of a post requires no such training.  Yes, it’s still “judgment”. But not judgment based on your vast experience and knowledge. 

Don't know if you have experience under an upright but it's not as easy as it appears.  Those kicks come at you very fast and following the exact flight of the ball can be very difficult - looking up into lights or the sun can instantaneously blind you.

I coach kickers, and have done so on both the high school and college levels.  I am under the uprights virtually every day during the football season, and would willing to bet I have watched more kicks from that vantage point than most officials.  I can easily watch 50-60 kicks A DAY from that vantage point.  It’s not that tough, and I would expect any official at this level to do it with 100% accuracy.  If the ball is OVER the post, yes, that's a tougher call, but this one was well below the top of the uprights. 

And if you get under the upright and don’t check where the sun or lights are BEFORE the ball arrives, shame on you, that’s not preparing yourself for the play.

And this was a game in a dome!

Now is it a miss?  of course.  Is it, as you say, worthy  of  " ... a suspension, or simply losing some assignments, having his games cut back is not out of the question, and probably deserved." - absolutely not unless there is a pattern, or as has been said before, if there's a need to feed the media and the losing team.

I still think it deserves it.  It was a major miss of a simple call.  Allowing it to go “unpunished” condones the outcome.

And yes, at this level, public relations has a lot to do with it.  Whether it should or not is debatable, but it does.

A number of years ago (pre-replay), an SEC crew missed a call by allowing a fumble to stand when the runner was clearly down.  The call caused Georgia not to be able to try a winning field goal against Georgia Tech in the closing seconds.  The crew lost the bowl game they would have gotten.  Had the call happened in the first quarter of a Georgia – New Mexico State game, would they have lost their bowl game.  I’m doubting it, but the situation led to the “suspension”.

Same thing occurred in another SEC game just last year.  Official called a USC penalty in the last minute of the game.  Call had a significant effect on the outcome (note in both cases I NEVER said the call “cost the team the game”, but they had a significant effect).  Rogers Redding himself sat the official down for a week.  Had the call come in the first quarter of that Georgia-New Mexico State game, would he have been suspended?  I highly doubt it.

Like it or not, the situation DOES play a role in the discipline.

If this occurs in a nothing game in the first quarter, would you be arguing for a suspension?  No - because you would not have heard about it.

If I knew about it I would, but you are correct, I probably wouldn’t know about it.

Let's not let game circumstances control the disciplinary action.

Sorry, it does.  See the PR comment above.

  The "mistake" by the official is exactly the same no matter when and under what circumstances it occurs.

True, we agree here.

As to the IR folks - I have no experience in the booth so have no basis to comment one way or the other.

I have been in the replay booth for numerous games in two conferences.  The Big East uses the same system with which I have had experience (DV Sport).  Unless there was a major technical breakdown, the end zone view was available to the replay official at his request.  Why he would have focused on the sideline view, I can’t even begin to imagine.  Short of the technical breakdown possibility, I can’t come up with any scenario where the RO couldn’t be said to have made a major error.

[zebra99]

Well, Blue - no sense trying to change your mind about punishing this official for not meeting your 100% correct standard.  But I submit, it's a hell of lot different, even on this type of play, to be a coach during practice without any responsbility for making this important call.  And, as a coach do you stand right under one upright?  I'll be you're back farther and in the middle.

Anyway, by your statements I guess you're assuming this official goes unpunished?  If so, you are dead wrong.  It's the severity of the punishment that is being debated.  Trust me, there are consequences for both the on field and IR officials.

And, I guess I do have to say something about your "shame on you" comment if they didn't check the sun or lights.  First, why the rhetoric?  Second, are you our ultimate judge?  Third, having worked that position, checking the lights and sun is good but it doesn't prevent them interfering with your vision because you're locked into looking up with a specific angle.  Fourth, the domes I've worked in have lights which are often worse than outdoors.

Yes, this was a major miss.  So we will have to agree to disagree on the nature of the "punishment", that's all.

[ljudge]

Guys, I know the R, LJ, and BJ well. It was the FJ's call. The BJ was under the other goalpost. Also, the BJ, although he looks young, has several years of collegiate experience and just moved from C-USA to the Big East this year. Either way, it was not his goalpost so a discussion on his youthful look, experience/inexperience is pointless. As for the FJ, he's also a well experienced official.

Although I don't work for the Big East, I am a D1 official. I can speak from experience, and, as most of you can probably relate. . .you can be working the best game of your life, and in the blink of an eye, miss something detrimental. It comes with the advocation.

I'm sure that crew sincerely appreciates the support of their brethren in stripes. Thanks.

Good message, Wing!  I can say I've had the privilege of working with you and the B (from this game) in my first five years in NCAA and you both are two very fine collegiate officials.  I was surprised at some of the guesses and/or assumptions about age, experience, who made the call, what the supervisor should do, etc. in this post.  Let's leave the criticism in the hands of the media (they do it all to well) and use videos and situations to learn from and get better from these unfortunate situations.  We should definitely discuss situations such as this and try to put ourselves in the shoes of those officials and think of how we may do it differently.  We can use that knowledge and learn from it ourselves so it never happens to us.

I'm looking forward to seeing the B working Sundays in stripes.  He's gonna get there and be there a very long time.  I wish the FJ and the replay official well.  The sign of a great official is what he does in response to something like this.  I'm confident both will rebound and serve their conference well.  Keep your heads up boys!

[Atlanta Blue]

Well, Blue - no sense trying to change your mind about punishing this official for not meeting your 100% correct standard.  But I submit, it's a hell of lot different, even on this type of play, to be a coach during practice without any responsbility for making this important call.

I absolutely agree with you!  That's not even a debatable question.  But my point was, I have seen this angle thousands of times, sometimes hundreds of times in a week.  I agree, never during the heat of a D1 game, but it is still a simple call, not a complicated one that puts your training, knowledge and experience to use.  DPI or not?  Holding or not?  Block below the waist (with whatever restrictions have been added this year)?  Those are calls that require your considerable expertise.  Did a ball go left or right of a post?  Sorry, all of your training, knowlege or experience isn't needed for that one.

And, as a coach do you stand right under one upright?  I'll be you're back farther and in the middle.

Depends on the drill, the kicker, and whether I have help that day from a manager or other coach.  I've done plenty of both. Today.

Anyway, by your statements I guess you're assuming this official goes unpunished?  If so, you are dead wrong.  It's the severity of the punishment that is being debated.  Trust me, there are consequences for both the on field and IR officials.

I know there are, but if they aren't made public, then the public feels they are unpunished, and it further erodes the trust and respect for officials.  The public feels the poor performance is accepted.

Suspensions of players or coaches are made public, why not officials?

And, I guess I do have to say something about your "shame on you" comment if they didn't check the sun or lights.  First, why the rhetoric?

Because there are people here making excuses, saying we don't know the whole story, that we should give him the benefit of the doubt.  I don't buy it.  This is D1 college football.  It's a show, a major public event.  And here are a pair of officials that made a bad mistake on a simple play at a critical point.  If the lights were the issue, then that becomes lack of preparation. 

Second, are you our ultimate judge?

Not directly, no.  But the public that is paying for tickets and making contributions and supporting sponsors deserve an accounting.

Third, having worked that position, checking the lights and sun is good but it doesn't prevent them interfering with your vision because you're locked into looking up with a specific angle.  Fourth, the domes I've worked in have lights which are often worse than outdoors.

I'm sure some do.  When I had a HS game in the Georgia Dome last week, I was thankful that through my position with the NFL that I had access to take my kicker down to the Dome to work out a few days ahead of time.  I came back reminding our coaches that punt and kick returners needed to be sure to get extra kicks during pregame to get used to the Dome ceiling and lights.

But while both of these COULD have been contributing factors for the FJ, they offer no support for the RO, who bears an even greater responsibility here in my eyes.

But since I'm not your ultimate judge, I guess that doesn't matter.

[zebra99]

"I know there are, but if they aren't made public, then the public feels they are unpunished, and it further erodes the trust and respect for officials.  The public feels the poor performance is accepted.

Suspensions of players or coaches are made public, why not officials?"

Because there is a fundamental difference between officials and players/coaches too extensive to go into here.  I've heard this argument for decades (oops, revealing my age again!).  There is no public right to be told of disciplinary actions.  Schools, just like corporations with respect to their employees, aren't required by law to disclose discipline of players or coaches, they choose to do it because of media pressure.  Same for conferences with respect to their officials - it's a choice made one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

I submit there is no real public good to drag officials through the muck when they make mistakes other than to appease those who get their kicks over anothers misery. 

The media, no matter how hard they try, do not control the world unless we allow them.

Again, we will agree to disagree on what the "public" deserves.

[110]

I'm gonna stir the pot here, with a mechanics query, and in typical fashion, flavoured with a touch of maple leaf.

Up here, the R calls converts and field goals inside 15. The side officials has kicker/holder protection.

Might I suggest that it's easier for the R to call it, as he is better able to follow the ball and in this case, would have seen the ball cross *before* the post, exactly as the video commentators declare?

As for suspensions, etc., shouldn't the video replay guy get roasted?

[Osric Pureheart]

On t'other hand, if the ball goes over the top of the post he's completely screwed unless he can get right behind the flight of the ball with very little reaction time, no?

[zebra99]

I'm gonna stir the pot here, with a mechanics query, and in typical fashion, flavoured with a touch of maple leaf.

Up here, the R calls converts and field goals inside 15. The side officials has kicker/holder protection.

Might I suggest that it's easier for the R to call it, as he is better able to follow the ball and in this case, would have seen the ball cross *before* the post, exactly as the video commentators declare?

As for suspensions, etc., shouldn't the video replay guy get roasted?

that's what I love about discussing mechanics!  Different strokes for different folks.  We all think "our" favorite mechanics are the only way to go, turns out others work just as well.

[Razor]

This is a quote from the Syracuse newspaper.

"Our review of the process determined that the replay official mistakenly focused his attention on the sideline angle, which proved to be distorted. We are confident that our officiating staff will learn from this situation in order to prevent a reoccurrence."

[Kalle]

This is a quote from the Syracuse newspaper.

"Our review of the process determined that the replay official mistakenly focused his attention on the sideline angle, which proved to be distorted. We are confident that our officiating staff will learn from this situation in order to prevent a reoccurrence."

Good, this is exactly what the conference should have focused on. Finding out why the call was blown and making sure that the same mistake won't be repeated. Any punishment on the officials involved is secondary.