Swinging Gate

[WVOfficial]

Ok guys....quick question, hope to get some good feedback.

I assign games for a local youth league.  My officials had this play come up and I've since been in a debate with the coach & our state rules interpreter to the NFHS about this.

Swinging gate.  Snapper is last man on the line of scrimmage, over by himself.  Snaps the ball (not between his legs).  No big deal.  However, the officials flag it and call it a snap infraction. 

The debate between the coach and the officials are the snapper requirements.  Snapper must have his shoulders parallel to the opponent's goal line.  However, is this a pre snap requirement or a requirement until the snap is complete?

Below is a link to the play in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92tO1DtUKrM

Now, before I sent an email to our rules interpreter, I agreed with the call, believing the snapper has to meet those requirements during the entire snap.  Nowhere does the rule say it's a pre snap requirement.

Below is the discussion.

Email address and names have been taken out to protect the innocent. 

Me:
I'm a football official on the KS board.  Tom Light emailed you earlier about a snap infraction call.

Some officials disagree with the actual play on question, and the coaches are asking me as the official who assigns the games.  Your input, please?

Swinging gate play.  Snapper is alone and last guy on the line of scrimmage.  Can he twist around to snap the ball?  If no, can you provide me with the rule?

Thanks in advance.


Reply:
the snapper has to have his shoulders parallel to the LOS and he cannot pick up the ball to toss it. The snapping must be quick. See 7-1-3d and 2-9.

Me:
So to be clear, whether he is the last guy on the LOS or not, he cannot twist during the snap to execute the snap?  The debate is the requirements for the snapper are prior to the snap and not during the snap.

Reply:
He cannot twist to snap the ball.

Coach's reply
I believe that you misinterpret XXX response as to the Swinging Gate Snap. It is not an illegal play so long as the ball is snapped correctly. I have  attached a discussion from the Colorado High School Board. Same rules that we use. In fact every officiating board that I can find on the web declares this a legal play.

The Rule requires simply that the snapper start with his shoulders somewhat parallel to the LOS. This is defined as within 30 to 45 degrees. The snap has to be in one continuous motion.

You can certainly snap the ball sideways to a back (person not on the line). I cannot find any reference in any organization that the shoulders must stay parallel to the line during the snap. However we teach our center to snap with his shoulders parallel so as to end any discussion.

As you can see in the picture the shoulders rotate under so as to stay parallel to the line. (I don’t think that is a requirement but we meet in anyway so as to end any controversy. We do not rotate the shoulders away from the line of scrimmage. Again most rules look to a 45 degree angle. We work to stay almost dead on even.

The swinging gate formation and the swinging gate snap is clearly legal. The snap does not have to go backward at  a 90 degree angle.


I know each state has their own intrepretation of rules, but we generally attend to agree on 99% of them.  So are we crazy in WV?

Opinions/Facts appreciated!

[Atlanta Blue]

Absolutely legal snap.  True, he can't lift the ball and toss it, the motion must be continuous. But the rule doesn't require him not to rotate during the motion.  Of course, the defense is free to move as soon as the snapper makes any motion, and he is no longer protected as they aren't in a kicking formation.

[WVOfficial]

After looking at the video, this is what our rules interpreter said....

The snapper moved prior to initiating the snap. Illegal snap or you could call it a false start. Otherwise the snap itself is OK.

[HLinNC]

At The Snap

The key word here is AT.  We all know a legal snap must touch a back or the ground.

Do we require an eligible receiver to hold his position in formation until the snap is complete?  Do we require a back to remain a back until the snap is complete?  Under the philosophy espoused, that is essentially what is being said should be done.

Why do you want a lineman to maintain his positioning through the entire snap?  What about a pulling guard? A tackle moving to pass block?

[HLinNC]

Could I point out the 800 lb gorilla in the room?

Its youth ball for Pete's sake. 

[mbyron]

Could I point out the 800 lb gorilla in the room?

It's youth ball for Pete's sake.

Thank you. In HS varsity I might have a FS for the flinch before the snap, but in that game it's legal. The snap itself was legal.

[HLinNC]

but in that game it's legal.

Would make for some awfully long Saturdays around here

[Bob M.]

REPLY: The definition of a lineman says that his shoulders must be approximately parallel to the LOS "when the ball is snapped." Before the ball is snapped and after the ball is snapped, it doesn't matter where his shoulders are.

And the definition of a "snap" says that the snap occurs when the snapper "...first moves the ball."

There is nothing to suggest that the shoulders must remain parallel until the snap ends. If that was required, how could you ever get a punt play off without a flag?!?

In my opinion, this play looked perfectly legal to me.

[vplacek228@comcast.net]

 P_SJust out of curiosity did M say anything about mixed crew of white and black shorts or did he let it go since its youth football and not scholastic.

[WVOfficial]

wvwhitehat....Ironically, he did not.  Which you know he is a HUGE stickler when it comes to appearance.  A quick tidbit on that...I think WV waited so long to approve black pants and black shorts (or at least the word got to us late down in Charleston) that it put some people in a bind because all the local vendors were selling out of black shorts and black pants rather quickly.  I order through Honig's, so I had no issues with getting the proper attire in time.  Having said that, our board did a quick vote and at least 95% of the board said they were staying with white shorts (so rookies knew what color to go with).  In in true fashion with our board, everyone started buying black shorts.

FYI....I am not in this video and did not have this game.  I have, however, let the swinging gate play go off without a hitch in the past.  The official flagged it and called it a snap infraction.  After much debate, I went ahead and emailed Mike (our rules guy for non WV folk).  I know it's "only youth football", but this is a training ground for new officials and when I have new officials being told to flag perfectly legal plays, I need to look into before, God forbid, they flag it on a Friday night and then say well I was told in the past that it was illegal.  I got conflicting replies from Mike early on, making reference to no twisting backwards to snap the football.  Then when I sent him the video, he came back and said it was fine, but mentioned the snapper moving (agree that it is something I wouldn't call at the youth level).

Maybe I misunderstood his initial reply, but it confused me that the first reply was no twisting backwards to snap the football, and then the second reply was that it was legal. 

[vplacek228@comcast.net]

I have to agree with you the video looked like this team is well coached in running this play and the snap itself appeared legal.  Without seeing the film Mike probably figured the center started with shoulders parallel to the line but rotated before beginning snap.  I've seen a few varsity teams attempt to run something similar and ended up with the center lifting the ball then throwing it sideways (ie not one continuous motion).  Also have run into teams where the swinging gate linemen are either not parallel to the line or once were lined up about 3 yards behind line.  Was the wingman back then and was all set to flag for illegal formation (once the snap occurred) until the defense came up and lined up on them therefore encroaching.

[KDJBBBJ]

There is the next trick play to come out.  4th and less than 5 line up in field goal swinging gate formation with the linemen intentioaly in the backfiled so when the defense liesup they encroach and get a free 5 yards and a first down.  I can see someone trying it.

[NoVaBJ]

Could I point out the 800 lb gorilla in the room?

Its youth ball for Pete's sake.

If a team, even a youth team, is going to snap from the swinging gate, then the formation, pre-snap movement, and execution had better be perfect.

 

[HLinNC]

If a team, even a youth team, is going to snap from the swinging gate, then the formation, pre-snap movement, and execution had better be perfect.

Enjoy your 3.5 hr. games.  I'll be back at the house loading up my Silver Bullets.

[ricendice]

If a team, even a youth team, is going to snap from the swinging gate, then the formation, pre-snap movement, and execution had better be perfect.

 

I'm with you.  Plays and formations designed to fool the defense by deception need to be executed perfectly.

Line up the kids, run the ball and tackle.  Fundamentals should dominate the youth games.

Enjoy your 3.5 hr. games.  I'll be back at the house loading up my Silver Bullets.

Not when you get a 4th grade Dad that thinks his kid is the next Peyton Manning.  If these buffoons are going to run trips, quads, wild cat... whatever catch phrase offense of the year they had better be set, legal with blockers staying home.  I'm not spending my Saturday on a dead clock watching a 9 year old throw 1 for 24.

[ricendice]

WVWhite hat... why are you giving this coach much ear time anyways?  It's obvious what he thinks of us...


"Bad Call by the Ref on a lead Blocker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUbBx_znZYE&feature=related

[WVOfficial]

rice,  I think you are directing that question to me, since I started the thread.

A) I gave the coach so much time because I am the official that assigns officials to this particular league.  If they have a question on a call or rule, I try my best to answer it for them.

B) The coach is not the same guy who puts up those videos.  However, I've seen that video and the title that went along to it.  And I make it a habit to not entertain videos that question judgement on behalf of the official.  The swinging gate play was more of a rules interpretation question rather than a judgement call question.

C) These coaches are generally good people and approach me in a respectful way.  I find it that if officials at the youth level make themselves approachable and willing to be a part of the learning process for the kids, it can make the day way more enjoyable for all involved.