FSU - Clem: roughing kicker

[TampaSteve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGGQffWj19E
HS official here.
After watching the super-duper slomos, it seems the FSU player made contact with K prior to K kicking the ball.  - right around 0:39.
That being said, using my HS rationale, the kicker is not a kicker until he kicks the ball.  It seems this shouldn't be roughing.
For NCAA if contact is made before the K actually becomes a K, we don't have anything, do we?

[TxSkyBolt]

Maybe I'm just slow, but I couldn't tell if the defender hit the "ball carrier" or the "kicker."  In real time, you certainly have to call this roughing.  I think this is a good call that would be supported by any supervisor.

Best regards,

Brad

[Atlanta Blue]

Protection begins when it is "obvious a scrimmage kick is going to be made", not when he touches the ball with his foot.

This was clearly a foul.  The player didn't even go for the ball, he went straight for the kicker.  When blocking a punt, you aim for a point a foot or two in front of the point where the kicker's foot will meet the ball.  The FSU player aimed for the kicker's thigh.  He had no intention of blocing this kick.  He was there to inflict punishment on the punter.

[NVFOA_Ump]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGGQffWj19E
HS official here.
After watching the super-duper slomos, it seems the FSU player made contact with K prior to K kicking the ball.  - right around 0:39.
That being said, using my HS rationale, the kicker is not a kicker until he kicks the ball.  It seems this shouldn't be roughing.
For NCAA if contact is made before the K actually becomes a K, we don't have anything, do we?

I believe that's incorrect.  Once the kicker is obviously going to kick the ball he gets full protection unless the team B player is ruled to have touched the kick.  He is clearly kicking the ball, and is well into the actual kicking motion here.  That the ball may or may not have been kicked at the instant of initial contact by the B player is irrelevant.

And I agree 100% with AB here, the defender made a major mistake in his path to the ball and got the kicker instead.  The call is correct RTK.   

[TampaSteve]

thanks fellas.  Obviously wasn't trying to point a finger or toss anyone under the bus.  Seeking rationale from NCAA perspective.

[TxSkyBolt]

Protection begins when it is "obvious a scrimmage kick is going to be made", not when he touches the ball with his foot.

I disagree.  The defender has the right to tackle the ball carrier until the ball carrier becomes a kicker (after the ball carrier kicks the ball).

Best regards,

Brad

[NVFOA_Ump]

So assuming for discussion that in the case play here the contact occurred an instant before the ball left the kickers foot we would not have a flag?

[Atlanta Blue]

I disagree.  The defender has the right to tackle the ball carrier until the ball carrier becomes a kicker (after the ball carrier kicks the ball).

Best regards,

Brad

Disagree if you would like, but the rule specifically says, "when it is obvious a kick is going to be made".

If the punter is rolling out like a rugby punt, then yes, he is a ball carrier because it isn't "obvious" a kick is going to be made.

But in a case like this, the rule is not meant to differentiate between the instant when a punter releases the ball and raises his foot, and when contact is actually made.  It was "obvious" a kick was going to be made, and the "kicker" is protected.

The rusher had an easy way to avoid a foul here: touch the ball.  He chose not to do that, but to aim for an obvious punter.  That's RTK.

[Welpe]

Disagree if you would like, but the rule specifically says, "when it is obvious a kick is going to be made".

Against a kicker or a holder...when does a ball carrier become a kicker?

[TampaSteve]

Against a kicker or a holder...when does a ball carrier become a kicker?

That's the point why I brought this up to see what it is in the NCAA.
I'm a lowly HS guy and with HS 'you're not a kicker until you kick it.' 
This K was not YET a K when he was contacted (at least per HS).

[El Macman]

Disagree if you would like, but the rule specifically says, "when it is obvious a kick is going to be made".

But the rest of that sentence says, "...no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick." It doesn't say the ball carrier that is about to become the kicker. Sorry, but if he hasn't kicked the ball, then contact with him is NOT running into or roughing the kicker.

[fencewire]

2.27.3.a

Kicker and Holder
ARTICLE 3.
a. The kicker is any player who punts, drop kicks or place kicks according to rule. He remains the kicker until he has had a reasonable time to regain his balance.

9.1.16.a

ARTICLE 16.
a. When it is obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker or the holder of a place kick.

[Welpe]

That's the point why I brought this up to see what it is in the NCAA.
I'm a lowly HS guy and with HS 'you're not a kicker until you kick it.' 
This K was not YET a K when he was contacted (at least per HS).

Steve, in this play it seems to me it is close enough to the kick to justify a roughing call here.  I certainly see why you posted the question though.

[TxSkyBolt]

Disagree if you would like, but the rule specifically says, "when it is obvious a kick is going to be made".

Quote the rest of the rule:  ", no opponent shall run into or rough the kicker...."

All that's saying is that if the potential kicker has not left the tackle box, he will receive protection WHEN he becomes a kicker. 

One must read the definitions section in rule 2 to find that a kicker is: " ... any player who punts, drop kicks or place kicks according to rule." 

Best regards,

Brad

[NVFOA_Ump]

And he is also a defenseless player by definition in rule 2-27-14:

A defenseless player is one who because his physical position and focus of concentration is especially vulnerable to injury. Examples of defenseless players are:

c. A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball.

[Welpe]

And he is also a defenseless player by definition in rule 2-27-14:

A defenseless player is one who because his physical position and focus of concentration is especially vulnerable to injury. Examples of defenseless players are:

c. A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball.

Which means he could be a potential victim for targeting....yes?

[fencewire]

on that note, anyone have video of the targeting called on the Cowboys last night in the 4th q?  not to discuss NFL rules but looked clean to me NCAA wise..

[TxSkyBolt]

And he is also a defenseless player by definition in rule 2-27-14:

A defenseless player is one who because his physical position and focus of concentration is especially vulnerable to injury. Examples of defenseless players are:

c. A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball.

Ump.

With respect, that's oranges and we're talking apples.  The examples of defenseless players is included as it relates to "targeting" and has nothing to do with roughing the kicker.

Best regards,

Brad

[NVFOA_Ump]

I disagree.  The path that the team B player took was directly at the kicker and not an accepted "block the kick" path that would have taken him in front of the kicker.  He took out a defenseless player who was fully into his kicking motion, leg extended, with what I would judge no real attempt to get to where the ball would be.  That IMHO easily qualifies as targeting and initiating contact in my book.

From the 2011-2012 Points of emphasis:  “players and coaches should emphasize the elimination of targeting and initiating contact against a defenseless opponent and/or with the crown of the helmet.”

[Kalle]

That IMHO easily qualifies as targeting and initiating contact in my book.

Contact needs to be in the head or neck area. This contact isn't, so you cannot apply 9-1-4.

[BankerRef]

This is my interpretation of the original question for what it is worth.  If the kicker is able to get the kick off even with contact occuring just before the ball leaves his foot he is a kicker and will have protection through the entire act of making the kick.  If he is contacted before the kick in such a way that prevents him from making the intended kick he was a ball carrier and has no protection.

If it is not obvious that a kick will be made (ie. rugby style) there is no protection period even if the kick is made.

[TampaSteve]

I disagree.  The path that the team B player took was directly at the kicker and not an accepted "block the kick" path that would have taken him in front of the kicker.  He took out a defenseless player who was fully into his kicking motion, leg extended, with what I would judge no real attempt to get to where the ball would be.  That IMHO easily qualifies as targeting and initiating contact in my book.

From the 2011-2012 Points of emphasis:  “players and coaches should emphasize the elimination of targeting and initiating contact against a defenseless opponent and/or with the crown of the helmet.”

'took him out': seemed B, at worst, contacted the upward-moving knee if not the tibia.
Reasonably going after a kick = targeting?

[mccormicw]

AR 9-1-16-I.

A1 catches a long snap and plans to punt from behind his line of
scrimmage but misses the ball, which falls to the ground. A1 is then
contacted by B1. RULING: Team A fumble. No foul be B1. There is no
kicker until the ball is kicked.

AR 9-1-6-VI

Kicker A1, in a scrimmage kick formation, moves laterally two or three
steps to recover a faulty snap, or recovers a snap that went over his
head and then kicks the ball. He is contacted by B2 in an unsuccessful
attempt to block the kick. RULING: A1 does not automatically lose
his protection in either case unless he carries the ball outside the tackle
box. While in the tackle box A1 is entitled to protection as in any other
kicking situation. When it becomes obvious that A1 intends to kick in a
normal punting position, defensive players must avoid him after he kicks
the ball.

[NVFOA_Ump]

So given the timing here on the actual case play does "after the ball is kicked" mean when the ball first touches the kickers foot, or when the ball then leaves the kickers foot.  That's how close this call is - and are we sure that the rule is intended to have us calling it that close?

[Kalle]

So given the timing here on the actual case play does "after the ball is kicked" mean when the ball first touches the kickers foot, or when the ball then leaves the kickers foot.  That's how close this call is - and are we sure that the rule is intended to have us calling it that close?

This is a safety rule, and we are to err on the side of the flag. Thus I'd say that if you don't know which occurred first, foot contacting the ball or the defender contacting the kicker, it's a flag.

In this particular instance, flag.