Author Topic: About NCAA Replay  (Read 10274 times)

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RickKY

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About NCAA Replay
« on: September 27, 2011, 12:25:48 PM »
Given the recent PAT replay incident in Syracuse, I have a questions about the process of replay.

If the official who missed the call suggests to the Referee, who is in communication with the replay offical, that he may have missed the call, could that be considered y the replay official?

F:  Hey Joe, I may have, or think I, missed that call.
R:  Hey Bill, the FJ thinks he may have missed it.
Replay:  Let me take another look.

Could that happen, and couold it or should it, influence the replay official?

wingnut

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 12:56:08 PM »
NCAA Rule 12-5-2b...No game official may request that a game be stopped for a play to be reviewed.

A review is either initiated by the replay official, or by the head coach requesting that a play be reviewed by challenging the on-field ruling.  A head coach initiates this challenge by taking a team timeout before the ball is next legally put in play and informing the referee that he is challenging the ruling of the previous play.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 01:27:48 PM »
The referee is NOT in communication with the replay official.  The replay official (or his communicator (i.e., assistant)) can page the officials that play should be stopped.  At that point, the R goes to the sideline and puts on a headphone and talks with the replay official.  Communication that there will be or needs to be a replay is one way, from the booth to the field.  Six of the seven officials wear the pager (the BJ does not), and it's not subtle.  It will give you a significant jolt.  It's not a Taser, but you won't miss the vibration, it will wake you up.

The officials are expected to call the game as if there is no replay to back them up (albeit the slow whistle theory, but that's another discussion).  Part of the reason is a practical one: replay can only overturn "obvious" errors.  If there is not conclusive evidence to overturn the call, the call on the field stands.  Therefore, the on field official had better be calling what he thinks the play is, because unless there is conclusive evidence otherwise, he's right.

What does bother me about the NCAA system is that the R has no say so in the final outcome, and the play is never even discussed with the calling official (unless it happened to be the R). 

EXAMPLE: wouldn't it have been a much better methodology if the replay official had actually been on the headphones with the FJ and asked him what he saw?  Maybe the replay official would have concentrated on another angle if he knew the decision process which the FJ had gone through to get to that call.

In that way, the NFL system is superior.  The R makes the final call, not the replay official, although there is a good bit of discussion between the two during the process.  In addition, the R can call over the official involved if need be to clarify an issue.

But in both the NCAA and the NFL, the on-field officials can never instigate a replay by request.


RickKY

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 02:09:23 PM »
I wasn't suggesting the on field officals could request a replay.  I was trying to get ot the dsicussion between the R and replay official once the replay process is initiated.  Can there be input from the crew during the dsicussion?  I assume not, but was wondering if that could improve the process.  I know I've seen several wrong calls upheld in the last couple of seasons when it was fairly obvious the call was incorrect from the replay videos.

El Macman

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 02:50:25 PM »
The referee is NOT in communication with the replay official.  The replay official (or his communicator (i.e., assistant)) can page the officials that play should be stopped.  At that point, the R goes to the sideline and puts on a headphone and talks with the replay official.  Communication that there will be or needs to be a replay is one way, from the booth to the field.  Six of the seven officials wear the pager (the BJ does not), and it's not subtle.  It will give you a significant jolt.  It's not a Taser, but you won't miss the vibration, it will wake you up.

The officials are expected to call the game as if there is no replay to back them up (albeit the slow whistle theory, but that's another discussion).  Part of the reason is a practical one: replay can only overturn "obvious" errors.  If there is not conclusive evidence to overturn the call, the call on the field stands.  Therefore, the on field official had better be calling what he thinks the play is, because unless there is conclusive evidence otherwise, he's right.

What does bother me about the NCAA system is that the R has no say so in the final outcome, and the play is never even discussed with the calling official (unless it happened to be the R). 

EXAMPLE: wouldn't it have been a much better methodology if the replay official had actually been on the headphones with the FJ and asked him what he saw?  Maybe the replay official would have concentrated on another angle if he knew the decision process which the FJ had gone through to get to that call.

In that way, the NFL system is superior.  The R makes the final call, not the replay official, although there is a good bit of discussion between the two during the process.  In addition, the R can call over the official involved if need be to clarify an issue.

But in both the NCAA and the NFL, the on-field officials can never instigate a replay by request.

You probably ought not act as spokesman for the entire community. In more than one FCS conference the ruling official is asked to stand nearby, in case the RO needs additional input as to what caused him to rule as he did.
The R is not in electronic communication with anbody, except when he puts on the headset and communicates with the RO. When he does, it is two-way communication, although the RO generally is too busy to be distracted by the R trying to talk to him. Quite often the RO will ask the R to repeat the ruling on the field, so he can verify a) what he needs to be looking at, and b) that it is it reviewable. Often the RO has questions for the R (or the ruling official through the R), and there is nothing improper about that. No, I've never heard of a ruling official say that he thinks he may have missed the call. Rather, he'll simply say that he made the call based on the look he got. While it is true that on-field guys 'generally' rule it as they see it, I know for a fact that, when in question on really tight plays, the philosophy is to rule fumble versus down, TD versus down, catch vs no-catch, etc., because they KNOW that replay can (and almost always will) review it and 'adjust' the ruling accordingly, if needed. That takes some "getting used to" for folks that don't operarte with Replay regularly, but it comes with time.
And, every once in a while, the R will clandestinely initiate a review by announcing that the play is under review - it has happened - in at least one very high profile game. That is more difficult now, since Rs are to announce the ruling on the field, but still poosible. When the R gets to the headset, he'll let the RO know what he needs to look at. That's why smart Rs will turn away from any cameras, even under routine replays, so their lips can't be read.
As for the pagers, their strength varies, and their 'feelability' depends on the type and somewhat on how you carry them. Dropped in a pants pocket, they may not get felt at all. Clipped on the belt, it is almost always felt. I wouldn't characterize them as giving a 'jolt' - just a strong buzz like a really juiced up cell phone. And who wears them varies by conference and site - as few as four, and as many as all seven (plus sideline replay assistant). When less than 7, Priority should be given to those nearest the transmitting antenna. In some locales, the signal strength isn't enough to activate pagers on the far side of the field. That's not usually an issue at high profile venues, but not every game is at a such locations.

The NFL use of the R as the final authority may, indeed, be better. However, the limited ability of the RO to call for a review is a major source of debate in the NFL. In recognition of that, the NFL ROs ability to call for a review was expanded slightly this year (on scoring plays).

One day, the two will come together.

Offline zebra99

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 06:32:59 PM »
The referee is NOT in communication with the replay official.  The replay official (or his communicator (i.e., assistant)) can page the officials that play should be stopped.  At that point, the R goes to the sideline and puts on a headphone and talks with the replay official.  Communication that there will be or needs to be a replay is one way, from the booth to the field.  Six of the seven officials wear the pager (the BJ does not), and it's not subtle.  It will give you a significant jolt.  It's not a Taser, but you won't miss the vibration, it will wake you up.

The officials are expected to call the game as if there is no replay to back them up (albeit the slow whistle theory, but that's another discussion).  Part of the reason is a practical one: replay can only overturn "obvious" errors.  If there is not conclusive evidence to overturn the call, the call on the field stands.  Therefore, the on field official had better be calling what he thinks the play is, because unless there is conclusive evidence otherwise, he's right.

What does bother me about the NCAA system is that the R has no say so in the final outcome, and the play is never even discussed with the calling official (unless it happened to be the R). 

EXAMPLE: wouldn't it have been a much better methodology if the replay official had actually been on the headphones with the FJ and asked him what he saw?  Maybe the replay official would have concentrated on another angle if he knew the decision process which the FJ had gone through to get to that call.

In that way, the NFL system is superior.  The R makes the final call, not the replay official, although there is a good bit of discussion between the two during the process.  In addition, the R can call over the official involved if need be to clarify an issue.

But in both the NCAA and the NFL, the on-field officials can never instigate a replay by request.

Blue - excellent summary with a couple of comments.  While the calling official doesn't put on the headset, there are some occasions where replay will ask me to ask the calling official what he saw - sideline bobble catch no catch as an example.  Rare but it does happen.

As to the R having a say in the outcome, I'm not sure what the R can contribute when it's not his call, he hasn't seen the play and more importantly he is blind to the video replays?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 07:55:31 PM »
You probably ought not act as spokesman for the entire community.

That's fair.  I am speaking primarily only for the conference in which I have been in the replay booth, although another conference for which I have also worked is very similar.

Offline zebra99

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 08:16:01 PM »
Quote
That's why smart Rs will turn away from any cameras, even under routine replays, so their lips can't be read.

wow - never thought that's why some R's turn away - I'll bet very few do it for that reason.  Frankly, who cares?  I sure don't care if my lips are read - just don't want my big butt in full view of everyone - so I'll keep my hand over my mouth at all times from now on!  :)

Seriously, are we now worried about lip readers?  What has the world of officiating come to?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 08:17:38 PM by zebra99 »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 08:28:59 PM »
OK, story from an ACC basketball official:

"My mother called me after a TV game I had and chewed me out for my language toward Coach K.  She had no idea that Coach K's language was far worse than mine.  Why?  Because Coach K has learned how to put his hand or a program or something in front of his mouth so the TV cameras can't see his lips.  But believe me, he is letting us have it in language they would never let on TV.  So now, I let Coach K have it right back, but I cover my mouth as well.  Can't have my mom seeing me cussing out Coach K again."

Offline zebra99

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 08:55:53 PM »
OK, story from an ACC basketball official:

"My mother called me after a TV game I had and chewed me out for my language toward Coach K.  She had no idea that Coach K's language was far worse than mine.  Why?  Because Coach K has learned how to put his hand or a program or something in front of his mouth so the TV cameras can't see his lips.  But believe me, he is letting us have it in language they would never let on TV.  So now, I let Coach K have it right back, but I cover my mouth as well.  Can't have my mom seeing me cussing out Coach K again."

interesting - but if anyone reads my lips and catches me talking disrespectfully to coach or using inappropriate language than I would agree with your punishment level, and would go one step further - fire me!

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 09:21:55 PM »
interesting - but if anyone reads my lips and catches me talking disrespectfully to coach or using inappropriate language than I would agree with your punishment level, and would go one step further - fire me!

Funny you should say that.  I worked D1 baseball for a number of years.  Now, I'm not saying there is never some inappropriate language used, but if a coach talked to me the way some big time D1 basketball coaches talked to referees, he would never see the end of the game.

But I also worked the table for many D1 basketball games, including running the clock for two NCAA Final Fours.  The language from basketball coaches to officials is unbelievable.  And some officials, some very good and long time officials, give it right back.

Offline zebra99

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Re: About NCAA Replay
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 09:53:32 PM »
Funny you should say that.  I worked D1 baseball for a number of years.  Now, I'm not saying there is never some inappropriate language used, but if a coach talked to me the way some big time D1 basketball coaches talked to referees, he would never see the end of the game.

But I also worked the table for many D1 basketball games, including running the clock for two NCAA Final Fours.  The language from basketball coaches to officials is unbelievable.  And some officials, some very good and long time officials, give it right back.

I think baseball and basketball have different cultures than football, at least high school and college, don't know about the NFL.