CFO Bulletin # 2 - Play 10

[LittleWhistle]

any opinion about this change that came out on Monday's bulletin???

More Than Eleven Players on Defense
10. Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty. (6-5-3)

[NVFOA_Ump]

Reference is actually 3-5-3 but doesn't the new 2011-2012 rule specifically say to stop the play?

The new wording is underlined:

"3-5-3-b. Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent.  Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action."

To me that says that if Team B draws a substitution flag at the snap we kill the play per this new 2011-2012 wording.  Are we saying that we "change the rule" based on a memo?

[TXMike]

The key as I see it is whether the 12th "is in the formation" or not.  If he is, dead ball foul.  If he is not, live ball foul

[Diablo]

I see play 10 in the bulletin as an illustration of 3-5-2-b - see AR 3-5-2-I, which is ruled as a live-ball foul.

[LittleWhistle]

agree with Diablo that it illustrates AR 3-5-3 # 1 , but we have been instructed to shut this down as a dead ball foul up to this point in the season.  Midwest D1 conference(s).  Have not heard from supervisor yet if this philosphy will change based upon this "memo"

[Rostrom]

May I see the all bulletin...?

[TXMike]

Attached

[attachment deleted by admin]

[NVFOA_Ump]

So despite clear direction to enforce the substitution rules virtually identical for both A & B, and the new wording requiring the late whistle and flag:  "Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.", we're going back to having to make a judgment as to wether or not the 12th man was ever in a formation?  A lot of defenses aren't in a formation even at the snap with players moving constantly as the offense approaches the ball.

The 2011 rule change along with the pre-season guidance seemed pretty clear cut - now, apparently only for Team B, we're back to the old shades of gray?  Even though the rule change as written applies equally to both Teams A and B?

[ref6983]

So despite clear direction to enforce the substitution rules virtually identical for both A & B, and the new wording requiring the late whistle and flag:  "Officials shall stop the action whether or not the ball has been snapped.", we're going back to having to make a judgment as to wether or not the 12th man was ever in a formation?  A lot of defenses aren't in a formation even at the snap with players moving constantly as the offense approaches the ball.

The 2011 rule change along with the pre-season guidance seemed pretty clear cut - now, apparently only for Team B, we're back to the old shades of gray?  Even though the rule change as written applies equally to both Teams A and B?

You have misinterpreted this from day one. You need to accept that nothing had ever changed in this play situation and move on.

[Andrew McCarthy]

It's pretty simple- if player #12 is going off, you let it go.  Live ball foul if he's still on the field at the snap.

[NVFOA_Ump]

You have misinterpreted this from day one. You need to accept that nothing had ever changed in this play situation and move on.

Obviously it's not just a high school umpire from MA who "misinterpreted" this or Dr. Redding would not have included it in the bulletin.

Then back to some of the original discussion earlier this year.  With so many teams now using the no-huddle "muddle" offense with a comparable defense exactly when is the 12th man "in formation"?  What do we have when the 12th man on Team B has been on the field for way more than 3 seconds while B is muddling around waiting for A to set, and only heads toward the sideline as A is finally getting into formation preparing to snap, and then does it multiple times during the game?  That's not gaming the rules?  And given the 2011-2012 rule change, exactly what was accomplished in relation to the more than 11 men on the field issue?

Additionally we've now reintroduced the the previous problem with the existing wording in 3-5-2-c-2 that still says "A departing player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately.

[TXMike]

I am a B and am looking at the defense on every play.  I am able to tell when the extra player is "in the formation" or when he is stumbling around trying to figure out if he is supposed to be there and if so, where.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I am a B and am looking at the defense on every play.  I am able to tell when the extra player is "in the formation" or when he is stumbling around trying to figure out if he is supposed to be there and if so, where.

But what do you do when he's stumbling around multiple times and he repeatedly doesn't leave until A sets their formation, then somebody leaves last minute?  Do we then decide that B's not really stumbling around at all but gaming the rules?

[TXMike]

I have not seen that yet, but if I deem he was in the formation he has 3 seconds to start off.  If he does not do something that looks like he might be leaving then it is a dead ball foul.  Otherwise I let him go and flag if he does not get close enough to the sideline before the snap

[Diablo]

It's pretty simple- if player #12 is going off, you let it go.  Live ball foul if he's still on the field at the snap.

Well, perhaps a bit more complicated than that.

From the CFO Interpretation: Instant Replay More Than Eleven Players on the Field

By interpretation: When a team has more than eleven players on the field and the player(s) in excess of eleven is (are) attempting to leave the field, if at the snap the player’s next step will take him out of bounds, there is no violation of Rule 3-5-3 and the play is not reviewable.

EXAMPLES
1. Team B has 12 players in the defensive formation. The officials do not detect the extra player and do not stop the action. Realizing his mistake the 12th player tries to run off the field, and at the snap he is inside the numbers and at least two steps from the sideline. RULING: Reviewable play.

2. Team B has 12 players in the defensive formation. The officials do not detect the extra player and do not stop the action. Realizing his mistake the 12th player tries to run off the field, and at the snap he is so close to the sideline that his next step takes him out of bounds. RULING: The play is not reviewable.

[Diablo]

What do we have when the 12th man on Team B has been on the field for way more than 3 seconds while B is muddling around waiting for A to set, and only heads toward the sideline as A is finally getting into formation preparing to snap, and then does it multiple times during the game? 

I think AR 3-5-2-VI provides light towards an answer.

VI. Between scrimmage downs, one or more Team B substitutes enter the
field of play. Before the snap for the next down, more than 11 Team B
players intentionally stay on the field of play as long as possible (over
three seconds) to disguise the defensive personnel, the type of defense
and the pass coverage. RULING: Dead-ball foul on Team B, illegal
substitution. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot (Rule 3-5-2-
c).

[Andrew McCarthy]

Well, perhaps a bit more complicated than that.

I was trying not to complicate things.

[NVFOA_Ump]

But the problem with the parallel rules, AR's, and various memos - it is complicated.

But in summary given those rules, AR's, and the current memo item #10 we end up with something like:

1. If the extra B departing player(s) who have been on the field for more than three seconds
2. are clearly near the sideline and heading off of the field without participating in any way,
3. and have
    a. not been in a defensive huddle,
    b. and have not in our judgment been in a "formation",
    c. or have not in our judgment intentionally stayed on the field to mask the defensive alignment
4. and the departing player(s) is/are still on the field at the snap

we would then have a live ball foul, otherwise we have a dead ball foul?

[Magician]

This is not that hard.  If B has 12 or more players on the field with no one moving to leave for more than 3 seconds, kill it.  Illegal substitution.

If they realize within 3 seconds that the 12th player needs to leave but he does not get off the field in time, live ball illegal substitution.

If he does get off the field, no foul.

If the crew doesn't realize there were 12 players until well after the ball is snapped and they played with 12 players, flag it.  Illegal substitution.

I believe the only change was the last foul used to be illegal participation.  It was reduced to illegal substitution.  They also codified the ability to kill it if you got your 12 count right after the ball was snapped.

[ref6983]

This is not that hard.  If B has 12 or more players on the field with no one moving to leave for more than 3 seconds, kill it.  Illegal substitution.

If they realize within 3 seconds that the 12th player needs to leave but he does not get off the field in time, live ball illegal substitution.

If he does get off the field, no foul.

If the crew doesn't realize there were 12 players until well after the ball is snapped and they played with 12 players, flag it.  Illegal substitution.

I believe the only change was the last foul used to be illegal participation.  It was reduced to illegal substitution.  They also codified the ability to kill it if you got your 12 count right after the ball was snapped.