Punt: Touchback, Safety, or TD?

[losthog]

The other night we had a play that created some discussion among our group.  I will present the situation, but reserve the call that was made.

Team K punts the ball from their own 45 yd line.  Team R muffs the punt at their own 8 yd line.  The ball travels into the R endzone where there is a scrum for possession of the ball.  What is the call if
a.)K recovers the ball
b.)R recovers the ball
c.)the ball travels out of bounds (oob) before possession by either team.

Thanks,



 

[busman]

Repeat after me - A kick is a kick is a kick until someone gains possession.  So, when it crossed the goal line, it was dead, R's ball on the 20.  So recovery and continuing to go out of bounds out the end zone is moot.

[dch]

busman is certainly correct.  We must learn and remember that if any kick breaks the plane of R's goal line it is dead and a touchback  (I know, not a scoring attempt until it is good or not).  A, B, & C didn't happen.
No matter how much it is discussed in meetings this situation seems to come up in our area most years.

Life would be simpler if they took the foot out of football and kicking was not allowed.  But then the game wouldn't be as challenging or as much fun.  And we probably wouldn't know of Atlanta Blue --- that wouldn't be good.

[ECILLJ]

The play became dead when the ball broke the plane of the goal line. The kick is the force that put the ball in the end zone. Touchback, 1st and 10 for B from their own 20 yd. line.

[mbyron]

How much discussion did this case generate? I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but this one's pretty basic.

[NWA_UMP]

In a game about a week ago. I had to remind my R about this type of situation. It was a kickoff in a Freshman game with a kicker that can put it inside the 5 on a regular basis. Kid touches the ball at the 3 as it is bouncing and goes into the endzone. He bean bags the touch and whistles the runner down after he "recovers" the ball in the EZ and is tackled at the 6. I hit the whislte 2x and asked him what happened...needless to say we set it on the 20, 1-10.

He looked at me after our talk and asked "what the hell was I thinking"...don't know but brain cramps happen...

Hope yours turned out correctly.

[losthog]

How much discussion did this case generate? I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but this one's pretty basic.

A bunch.  I'll give the call on the field now.

Our crew called it a TD because K recovered the muff in the end zone.  I suggested that we had blown the call because the kick never ended because possession had never been secured by either team before crossing the goal line.  It should have been placed at the 20 and R retain possession.  4 of the 5 man crew agreed with the on the field call.  A phone call was made to an expert, they also said TD was the correct call.

[busman]

Time to change experts.  And I am sorry you were in that situation.  I have been on both sides of a blown call.  It's really tough when you are outvoted 4-1 and you know you are correct.  Time to move on and learn.

[BoBo]

one sidenote does your state use NFHS rules or do you use NCAA rules??

[mbyron]

one sidenote does your state use NFHS rules or do you use NCAA rules??

Which forum did he post in?

[BoBo]

well mbyron i have been on for a while now and believe it or not some guys post on the high school site not knowing that other states may use ncaa rules.

they are assume things.

just trying to help him maybe sort things out.

[losthog]

No good question, but we are using NFHS rules.  This was my point to the crew after the game on the way home.  ( I accepted the call and went on at the game and waited until we were in the car on the way home to discuss the play and call.)

In college and pro rules it is a TD, but high school it is a touchback. 

[RickKY]

It's not the high school forum, it's the Federation forum.

I feel for you being the 1 of 5 that is correct.  I've been there twice and it's a lonely feeling.  Once was a TB/Safety call and the other was a penalty enforcement spot.  In both cases we got it wrong.  In both cases we figured out we got it wrong before the game ended.  Still too late as the mistakes were made. 

I suggest in a very diplomatic way you send an email to the crew to let them know the precise error "the crew" made on this play ruling.   Remember, we get it right or wrong as a crew and all members are responsible for the call, so include yourself in the error.  Make it a learning moment for the crew, not a slap on the wrist.

[familyman]

Repeat after me - A kick is a kick is a kick until someone gains possession.  So, when it crossed the goal line, it was dead, R's ball on the 20.  So recovery and continuing to go out of bounds out the end zone is moot.

[familyman]

Repeat after me - A kick is a kick is a kick until someone gains possession.  So, when it crossed the goal line, it was dead, R's ball on the 20.  So recovery and continuing to go out of bounds out the end zone is moot.

I agree with Kicks going into R's zone but what about blocked scrimmage kicks going into K's end zone?  I guess it's still a kick but can we have a new FORCE by R with blocked scrimmage kicks going into K's end zone?  By the "Redding Study Guide" we can have a new force, only if the the original force is not spent.  No distinction is made between a ball at rest and a ball not at rest, except if the ball at rest the covering official has no judgement to make, always a touchback.  What is the ruling if the blocked kick rolling toward K's sideline at the 5 yard line and R trying to recover the ball forces the ball into K's end zone?  If R recovers always a touchdown but if K recovers what do we have?  Touchback or safety?       

[Curious]

I suggest in a very diplomatic way you send an email to the crew to let them know the precise error "the crew" made on this play ruling.   Remember, we get it right or wrong as a crew and all members are responsible for the call, so include yourself in the error.  Make it a learning moment for the crew, not a slap on the wrist.

This IS as basic as it gets; and it isn't a judgement call.  A slap on the wrist is not appropriate; rather a slap "up-side the head"!

I suggest you find a new crew!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bama_stripes]

What is the ruling if the blocked kick rolling toward K's sideline at the 5 yard line and R trying to recover the ball forces the ball into K's end zone?  If R recovers always a touchdown but if K recovers what do we have?  Touchback or safety?

Judgment call by the covering official as to whether it was R's muff that put the ball in the EZ.  If the ball was never going into the EZ without R's muff, then TB.

CB 8.5.2 Sit C.

[familyman]

I gave this example in my pregame: Team K's punt from his end zone is blocked and his rolling toward the sideline at team K's 7 yard line.  R38 dives for the ball at the 7 and forces, new force, the ball into K's end zone with K recovering or forces ball out of K end zone.  This should be a touchback because of a new force by R.  My crew said the ball must be "at rest" before you can have a new force.  My state association has also said that I'm wrong and the ball must be at rest beforce you can have new force.  The "at rest" principle is a NCAA rule and not a NFHS rule.  No doubt were going to make absolutely sure there's a new force before we rule touchback.     

[losthog]

This IS as basic as it gets; and it isn't a judgement call.  A slap on the wrist is not appropriate; rather a slap "up-side the head"!

I suggest you find a new crew!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, thats what I need to do, because crews never make mistakes they can learn from. 

If you feel that way, you should probably stop calling games. 

[mbyron]

Yeah, thats what I need to do, because crews never make mistakes they can learn from. 

If you feel that way, you should probably stop calling games.

Of course, the rules of football are complex and have many gray areas.

Your OP, however, is not complex, nor does it involve a gray area. It's basic, as we have been saying.

I've screwed up a basic rule, as have all officials (if they're honest). The proper response is not to get defensive about it or to pretend that something simple is complex.

Nobody here said you were a bad official; the comments about the crew simply remark that somebody needs to know this football fundamental about kicks (KICKS - GENERAL, Fundamental #5). It's one thing for a crew member to mess up a fundamental. But it's not good to have a whole crew who can't sort this one out in just a few seconds.

[Kalle]

I've screwed up a basic rule, as have all officials (if they're honest). The proper response is not to get defensive about it or to pretend that something simple is complex.

Also, the proper response is not to suggest somebody to get a new crew but to discuss ways to eliminate voting moments from the field (if you have a disagreement where one or more officials won't back down, you're already in trouble, no matter what the referee decides - and he doesn't need to go by a vote, this is not a democracy).

(I don't think losthog got defensive, I think Curious was over the line)

[hoochycoochy]

I agree with Kicks going into R's zone but what about blocked scrimmage kicks going into K's end zone?  I guess it's still a kick but can we have a new FORCE by R with blocked scrimmage kicks going into K's end zone?  By the "Redding Study Guide" we can have a new force, only if the the original force is not spent.  No distinction is made between a ball at rest and a ball not at rest, except if the ball at rest the covering official has no judgement to make, always a touchback.  What is the ruling if the blocked kick rolling toward K's sideline at the 5 yard line and R trying to recover the ball forces the ball into K's end zone?  If R recovers always a touchdown but if K recovers what do we have?  Touchback or safety?       

The rule of thumb is that the original force is not spent.  The deciding factor needs to be something along the line of, will the original force put the ball in the EZ?  If the answer is yes, then no new force should be ruled.

When talking about force and kicks remember that you can't put a new force on a kick in flight.  If a kick in flight bounces off R and goes back into K's EZ then the kick is the force that put it there.   

[losthog]

Also, the proper response is not to suggest somebody to get a new crew but to discuss ways to eliminate voting moments from the field (if you have a disagreement where one or more officials won't back down, you're already in trouble, no matter what the referee decides - and he doesn't need to go by a vote, this is not a democracy).

(I don't think losthog got defensive, I think Curious was over the line)

Thank you.  You get it.  Fundamental call? OK.  Did we blow it?  Yes.  Can we learn from it and grow as a crew, we better.  Excusing bad calls?  Never. 

Glad to have a place where we can find support and make officiating better and better so the players on the field decide the game, not us.

[bigjohn]

God forbid, looking it up in the Rules Book or Casebook! If I as an assistant coach would have held up the rules book to the page that proved you were doing it wrong I woul have been flagged for USC!



ART. 1 . . . It is a touchback if any free kick or scrimmage kick:
a. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point fieldgoal
attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line, unless R chooses a spot of
first touching by K.

ART. 2 . . . A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball
becomes dead while not in player possession.

[losthog]

Lol.  Depends on the attitude you approached me with.