Can defense swipe at football?

[Wettstein]

Can a defensive lineman swipe at a football while it is being snapped by the center?  Please reference any specific rules.  Thank you.

[InsideTheStripes]

Please.  Not again.   

[NorCalMike]

  It is unlikely that a defensive play could swipe the ball during the snap and not commit a foul.

[Wettstein]

Sorry, but not all of us have been around since the beginning of time.    I have been using the search feature and have not yet found the magical words to find the post you are referring to.  Perhaps you could help reference the previous posting?  Thanks!

[InsideTheStripes]

http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=2820
http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=824
http://forum.officiating.com/football/59753-just-after-snap.html
http://forum.officiating.com/football/49484-slapping-snap.html
http://forum.officiating.com/football/16127-end-game-nose-swats-snap.html

There must have been a half dozen on the old NFHS message board.  I wasn't saying that to be a jerk - it's just a topic that people can't seem to agree on that often gets people riled up.

  

[Wettstein]

Thank you!

[Atlanta Blue]

Can a defensive lineman swipe at a football while it is being snapped by the center?  Please reference any specific rules.  Thank you.

There is no rule that says it can't be done.  That being said, it would be tough to do.  The problem comes with officials that confuse "it would be tough" with "it's illegal by rule".

[Curious]

There is no rule that says it can't be done.  That being said, it would be tough to do.  The problem comes with officials that confuse "it would be tough" with "it's illegal by rule".

Not just officials AB.........

[bigjohn]

There is no rule that says you can't pull out a gun and shoot the QB is there? Of course you need to have tape over the manufacture logo on the side of the gun!

[Tom.OH]

There is no rule that says you can't pull out a gun and shoot the QB is there? Of course you need to have tape over the manufacture logo on the side of the gun!

Only if the logo is larger then 3 inches

[bama_stripes]

There is no rule that says you can't pull out a gun and shoot the QB is there?

Of course there is:  9-9-1
"A player or nonplayer or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not
hinder play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage."

[bigjohn]

Touche'

[GoodScout]

Only if the logo is larger then 3 inches

And the gun can't be the same color as the football.

[HLinNC]

But it CAN now be penalty flag colored.

[bigjohn]

http://forum.officiating.com/football/82329-slapping-snap.html


I still say it is illegal and here is my rule coverage.

The snapper is not a runner so he is not like anyone else with the ball to be swiped at. The scrimmage has to start with a legal snap. If B interferes with that it is a disconcerting act and should be penalized, if there is contact with that act it should be considered UNR.

B has to start this motion prior to the snap to have any chance of slapping the ball.

9-5-1d. Using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to
interfere with A’s signals or movements

[Atlanta Blue]

B has to start this motion prior to the snap to have any chance of slapping the ball.

Not necessarily true.  Take the extreme case: snapper is incredibly slow, nose guard is incredibly fast.  The defense can move as soon as the snapper makes any motion.  So if the nose guard has fast reflexes and moves quicker than the slow snapper, it could easily happen, and be perfectly legal.

I'm not saying it's common, see my first response above.  It would be very difficult.  But it's not illegal as long as the nose guard starts after the snapper starts his move.

[bigjohn]

OK, if that is the case, you blow it dead call illegal snap on A and walk off 5 yard penalty. I can buy that once!
What if B misses and strikes A's snapper's arm?

*9.4.1 SITUATION C: During B1’s tackling of runner A1, he delivers a blow
toward the ball in an attempt to dislodge it, but instead strikes A1 with his fist.
RULING: B1 is charged with a personal foul and disqualified for striking. B will be
from an attempt to dislodge the football. Game officials must continually use
prudent judgment and see the entire play in order to view these types of acts in
the proper context. If it is determined that this contact is excessive, but is not an
act to be construed as fighting, the personal foul would result in an ejection for
striking, but would not be fighting by rule. (2-11)

[Atlanta Blue]

OK, if that is the case, you blow it dead call illegal snap on A and walk off 5 yard penalty.

Why is it an illegal snap?  I said the nose guard was faster, not that the snapper wasn't "quick and direct".   

What if B misses and strikes A's snapper's arm?

Then it's a foul on B,  I have no problem with that call at all.

[bigjohn]

ART. 2 . . . The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other
than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous
backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s)
of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before it touches an A lineman.

[blandis]

Hate to rain on the parade here but it's encroachment on B. The snap is not complete until the ball leaves the snapper's hands. To hit the ball out of his hands would be an illegal act.

[Atlanta Blue]

Hate to rain on the parade here but it's encroachment on B. The snap is not complete until the ball leaves the snapper's hands. To hit the ball out of his hands would be an illegal act.

True, the snap is not COMPLETE until it touches a back or the ground.  Doesn't matter.  The defense does not have to wait until the snap is COMPLETE, they are free to enter the NZ when the snap BEGINS.

Using your logic, on a punt, the defense can't enter the NZ until the snap reaches the punter (or hits the ground).  Obviously, that's not true.

If your logic were to hold, then every team should always be in a shotgun formation, because the defense could do nothing until the ball reached the QB.

By rule, it is LEGAL to knock the ball from the snapper's hands if the defense doesn't cross their LOS until the snap begins.  It is d@mn difficult, but it is not impossible, nor illegal.

[HLinNC]

Hate to rain on the parade here but it's encroachment on B. The snap is not complete until the ball leaves the snapper's hands. To hit the ball out of his hands would be an illegal act.

Rule references please?

[bigjohn]

ART. 2 . . . A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has
been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

Rule 2-40-1...A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground.

If the snapper is prevented from passing or handing the ball, a legal snap doesn't occur.