Author Topic: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.  (Read 19942 times)

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Offline WCFB

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Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« on: October 17, 2011, 04:06:23 PM »
I had a game last week #6 vs #7 in state rankings. The winner was guaranteed 2nd in league. I had some difficulty deciding when to penalize my sideline for having coaches in the restricted zone when the ball was live. It was a big game between these teams who were both undefeated going into this game. I really did not want to have a any sideline penalties because i wanted the game played on the field and, not effected by penalties from the coaches for being in the restricted zone during a high emotions game.

In the first quarter i had a coach in the restricted zone and was moving down field on a pass play. I could see him out of my peripheral and was yelling,"get out coach, get out." He stepped back and i was able to freely move past where he was previously standing.

On a kickoff in the first half i was moving down field after R began making his return and this time i had 2 coaches in the restricted zone. I was able to pass both of them without contacting them or altering my path. As i passed them i said you guys cant be in here right now.

In the third quarter score is 7-0 i am moving down my sideline on a pass play. I once again can see a coach in the restricted zone and this time im thinking to myself i may run into him. The pass play develops and i stop to watch action on the receiver now that the ball is in the air. I stop right next to the coach which happens to be the best angle to take this play. At this point i penalize for a sideline warning.

During the course of the game i reminded the coaches to stay back many times so i could avoid a sideline warning and subsequent  sideline interference penalties. They never impeded my progress but i had to keep thinking about them and making sure i was clear when i would side step down the sideline.

Im looking for some insight and philosophy on how to handle this. I dont want to be flag happy on the sideline but i also want to enforce the rules properly.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:16:07 PM by LO_Guvna »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 07:02:41 PM »
I think you realize these guys were simply not paying any attention to what you were saying, and totally blew your requests off. 

You can go back through these archives and read about some officials in Texas who went through a 4-5 year legal ordeal and hassle because a coach, who was run over was critically injured and disabled to the point of receiving workman's compensation.  The Insurance company, that had to pay for that disability, kept including the officials in their lawsuit to reclaim payments.

Although everyone publicly acknowledged the coach was totally at fault, the officials kept being included in the legal proceedings...for 4-5 years, before finally being removed from the dispute.

When you want a coach to respect your request, you have to first get his attention.  Asking for it is the correct, and simplest way, but when you're repeatedly totally ignored you have to ask louder, the sideline warning usually is loud enough, if not there's the 5 yard flag and if that doesn't work there's the 15 yard version, but that should be an absolute rarity. 

I put 4 kids through college, I'm not about to put some child of a coach who totally blew me off through college, you can if you want to.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 07:26:12 PM »
Simply put: the earlier, the better.

These coaches KNOW what the rule is.  Plus, we always remind them during our pre-game talk with them.  Now, I might remind them ONCE before I drop the rag, but no more than once.  I certainly wouldn't have let it go as long as you did.

That doesn't mean you have be ugly or confrontational about it.  You should continue to be professional.  But if you don't put an early stop to it, you could be running into a coach during a crucial play late in the game, and I promise you that will be far worse.

Online GoodScout

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 07:32:43 PM »
I would agree. i usually give one verbal warning before I hit them for a sideline warning, and if its one of those coaches who loves to be out on the field, they're going to be out there early and often. Better to bang them in the first quarter than late in the fourth. If they get one "unofficial" warning from you, then the sideline warning the rulebook allows, they have no one to blame but themselves when you starting hitting them with yardage. I understand the sentiment that you don't take things away from the kids, but weren't you already doing that by giving them a substandardly-called game because you were too distracted not running into people on the sideline?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 07:33:14 PM »
Although everyone publicly acknowledged the coach was totally at fault,

You are misrepresenting what happened here, and are just plain wrong.  Certainly "not everyone" acknowledges the coach was "totally at fault", as the insurance company is paying him.  I am NOT saying the official was at fault either.  Two people that were allowed to be where they were collided.  The officials were orignally included because it's what a good plaintiff's attorney should do: include everyone in the lawsuit and let the court decide who shouldn't be there.  In this case, at least two lower courts thought the official SHOULD be included, so your statement of "everyone publicly acknowledged the coach was totally at fault" is simply ludicrous, and factually incorrect.  At least two judges that heard the facts thought they should be included.  It was an upper court that finally dismissed them from the case.

As to the original poster's problem, I think saying something "unofficially" before dropping any flags is good sideline management.  But if that doesn't work, drop the one that's a warning.  That SHOULD get their attention.  If it doesn't, drop the five yard penalty on them.  Five yards, marked off as a dead ball foul is not going have a major effect in most situations.  And if it does, shame on them for putting themselves in that position.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 01:30:38 AM »
I will usually give the coaches one unofficial warning. Usually that's all it takes. The first time I have coaches in the restricted zone during the live ball. I will go to the head coach and tell him to keep his assistants back during the live ball period. The next time they are in the restricted zone, I will throw the flag and have the WH give the warning. Then I go to the head coach and advise him that is his freebie. The next one will cost him five yards. I always do this in the first quarter. I usually do not have to penalize the team after that.

We only have a few teams now that we have problems with. Unfortunately, some of our flanks tolerate too much from the coaches. This creates problems for the next crew.




Offline WCFB

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 04:18:16 AM »
Simply put: the earlier, the better.

These coaches KNOW what the rule is.  Plus, we always remind them during our pre-game talk with them.  Now, I might remind them ONCE before I drop the rag, but no more than once.  I certainly wouldn't have let it go as long as you did.

That doesn't mean you have be ugly or confrontational about it.  You should continue to be professional.  But if you don't put an early stop to it, you could be running into a coach during a crucial play late in the game, and I promise you that will be far worse.

After watching film of the game and doing my own evaluation i should have taken care of it in the first half. When i had two coaches in the restricted zone i should have penalized the sideline warning. Its a tough call for me because its a penalty that is not part of the game on the field. I just dont like it because we are told not to go looking for this call but, on the other hand they want it called. However it is a rule that must be enforced and the Texas incident is a perfect example.

I understand the sentiment that you don't take things away from the kids, but weren't you already doing that by giving them a substandardly-called game because you were too distracted not running into people on the sideline?

YES!... even though i hate to admit that. My performance in some way or another was affected by the coaches distraction. I think that will be part of my philosophy when i make this call. "Are they affecting my ability to call this game properly"

We only have a few teams now that we have problems with. Unfortunately, some of our flanks tolerate too much from the coaches. This creates problems for the next crew.

Its hard in our association because a couple of guys have bad reputations for being flag happy and they over officiate. The rest of the association talks about these guys like the plague and i think it affects the way we handle our sidelines as a whole. Guys dont want to be labeled the gunslinger and i think this is one of those penalties that falls in to that category of "this guy throws a lot of flags"

Thanks for the input so far. Its nice to have more information and philosophy to help base my judgement.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 04:20:22 AM by LO_Guvna »

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 06:57:03 AM »
scenario:
A has the ball on the 40 going in.
If A coaches are about the 50 in the restricted zone, no one round these parts gets too excited.
Our ire round these parts raises when we are interfered with doing our duties.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 07:00:54 AM »
Quote
Its a tough call for me because its a penalty that is not part of the game on the field.

Don't buy into that crap you hear about "why doncha worry bout whut goes on duh feeyuldh?!". 

The philosophy for working wings has gone to a wider perspective.  Safety dictates that area be cleared for us to work effectively.  If we have to concern ourselves with someone being in our way then we can't effectively concentrate on the field.  That first flag costs them absolutely 0 yards and sends a strong message its about to get a whole lot worse if you don't play along.

As has been mentioned earlier, they know the rule.  Its been around now, what, four years?  Its a turf battle really.  Verbal warning, then official warning, that should be enough.  If you get to the 5 yard penalty phase, the HC is going to take care of the problem.

You might catch a little verbal flack but you are going to anyway.   Its just the nature of the business when you work the sideline.  We all want a nice, quiet, peaceful sideline.  Letting sidelines get away with getting in your way isn't going to make your job any easier and will eventually lead to a greater problem.

losthog

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 07:46:49 AM »
Here is the question I have about the call/flag. 

When is the coach being on the field a violation?  Is the flag dropped at the snap, when the violation is noticed?  Does the foul result in a play stoppage?  What if it is the first flag (warning) or the second (5 yds)?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 09:08:06 AM »
A coach being on the field is a totally separate issue from the restricted area.   This is unsportsmanlike conduct by a non-player.  If it is noticed during play, you aren't going to kill the play.  If it is during a dead ball period, you certainly would not want the play to go off.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 09:13:13 AM »
HLinNC gave you the answer for a coach on the field.

IF you meant in the restricted area, the flag comes anytime you see it during a live ball.  It does NOT stop the play, and it is administered as a dead ball foul AFTER the play.

Offline NWA_UMP

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2011, 10:18:23 AM »
We popped a coach for Sideline warning on the opening kickoff last Friday night. I am in the process of moving from the chains to R. I work off the sideline in the back half of the box. I am not going to get taken out by a player or a coach no matter if they are coming from the field or in the box. That is my area and I control it. As my new WH duties, I remind my wings to get it early. Set the tone that we are in control of the rules and pace..coaches coach, not us, but their teams. If I have a coach in the box or even two steps on the field during dead ball time, I'm OK with that as long as they are back where they need to be when the ball is snapped. Give me my space and I will allow you your space. Work from mutual respect and not from fear. If a coach will push the restricted box he will certainly push other issues as well.

Online GoodScout

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2011, 11:07:45 AM »
I always introduce myself to my sideline coach on the rare occasions when I'm a wing for a JV game. This week's coach crooked his head at my accent and said, "where are you from?" I let him know I was from the South. Four plays into the game, I came over as tried to coach from the numbers and told him he couldn't be out on the field. He smiled and said "I can usually get all the way to the hashes with the rookies."

I politely let him know I was no rookie, and that if he came out again it was a flag. Then I smiled a big Southern smile and said 'yall get back behind the box now."

The coach knew what he was doing. They ALL know what they're doing. And what they're doing ... is testing you.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 01:47:05 PM »
scenario:
A has the ball on the 40 going in.
If A coaches are about the 50 in the restricted zone, no one round these parts gets too excited.
Our ire round these parts raises when we are interfered with doing our duties.
Same scenario A has ball on B40. Coach is in the restricted area at the 50. B intercepts the pass and makes a run for the end zone. Flank runs into the Coach at 50. Now you have sideline interference 15 yards when if you gave the sideline warning when coach was in the restricted with no yardage.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2011, 02:04:52 PM »
Forgive me for not rehashing all of the details, Atlanta Blue, or commenting on the legal strategies or the reasoning behind an insurance company's interest in being repaid, but the simple point I was trying to suggest, is that allowing a sideline to become more congested than the rules allow can very easily produce signidicant, unanticipated consequences.

Over the many articles repeated on these forums, I do seem to recall that it was reported that the coach, who was injured, publicly took full responsibility for the collision that injured him.  I also seem to recall the school accepting the coach's version of the events.

The point, you seem to miss, is that even when there is strong suggestion that the game officials were not at fault, as evidenced by this case, officials can be dragged into situations they are not recognized as being directly culpable and have to deal with consequences they would not normally anticipate or expect. 

You are certainly entitled to your assessment, "You are misrepresenting what happened here, and are just plain wrong." but what I was suggesting, that allowing a sideline to be improperly congested can cause unintended consequences is dead on, and well demonstrated by mentioning this previous incident and it's unfortunate aftermath.

The basic issue at hand is a simple question of "right of way" and the NFHS rule makers have apparently come to the logical conclusion that the space immediately adjacent to the sideline needs to be available to field officials for them to complete their responsibilities, and there is far less, if any, need for coaches to be in that space for them to be able to conclude their responsibilities. 

Perhaps we read differing versions of the original incident and have different recollections of all the minute and specific details, which in the context of remembering, as related to this discussion hardly seem relevant.   

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2011, 02:15:28 PM »
IIRC, the plaintiff lawyers basically alleged that the officials hadn't kept the sideline clear during the course of the game, and so the injured coach had no reason to believe he couldn't be there.

Online GoodScout

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2011, 05:12:37 PM »
I thought Georgia handled this pretty well when they instituted the restrictions back in 2009: They basically let every association know that evaluators would be judging crews on enforcement of the new restrictions, and any crew that didn't flag a team that failed to respect the new zones during live ball play wasn't going to be seeing any playoff games.

It was enforced fairly but effectively that year, and wasn't a major problem. Most refs I worked with even made it part of their pre games with the head coaches to make sure they understood it was going to be flagged.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2011, 06:08:16 PM »
Forgive me for not rehashing all of the details, Atlanta Blue, or commenting on the legal strategies or the reasoning behind an insurance company's interest in being repaid, but the simple point I was trying to suggest, is that allowing a sideline to become more congested than the rules allow can very easily produce signidicant, unanticipated consequences.

I would have no argument with your last statement, but that's not what you said.  Instead, you misquoted the facts in question to make your point.

Quote
The point, you seem to miss, is that even when there is strong suggestion that the game officials were not at fault, as evidenced by this case, officials can be dragged into situations they are not recognized as being directly culpable and have to deal with consequences they would not normally anticipate or expect. 

I don't miss that point at all.  I have been a baseball official at the D1 level, and have called the game for 40 years.  I am well aware that officials can be dragged into legal cases even when they are not at fault.  It is the primary reason I carry liability insurance.  But of all the talk of legal action, do you know how many judgments have been made against sports officials in US courts?  One, a lightning case in New Jersey, where the officials were held PARTIALLY at fault.  If anyone knows of any other, please let me know, as myself and another attorney have done research on this issue, and can't find any others.

In fact, do you know how much NASO has paid out in claims for judgments on their liability insurance for officials?  I do: exactly ZERO.   

Quote
You are certainly entitled to your assessment, "You are misrepresenting what happened here, and are just plain wrong." but what I was suggesting, that allowing a sideline to be improperly congested can cause unintended consequences is dead on, and well demonstrated by mentioning this previous incident and it's unfortunate aftermath.

That's not at all what you "suggested".  You SAID, "Although everyone publicly acknowledged the coach was totally at fault," which is not opinion, nor even judgment, it's an error in FACT.

If you want to say the sidelines near to be kept clear due to the possibility of liability issues, then say it, don't b#stardize the facts of the unfortunate Texas case just to make your point.  It's demeaning, and ruins your credibility.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2011, 01:43:10 PM »
I would have no argument with your last statement, but that's not what you said.  Instead, you misquoted the facts in question to make your point.

If you want to say the sidelines near to be kept clear due to the possibility of liability issues, then say it, don't b#stardize the facts of the unfortunate Texas case just to make your point.  It's demeaning, and ruins your credibility.

You can't back up fast enough to change your accusation around.  If you want to "hang your hat" on the fact I used the word "everybody" KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, but the crux of the original story was that there was little, if any, responsibility for the collision that happened directed at the game officials UNTIL the coach's disability payments were querstioned by the Insurance Company responsible for satisfying the claim.

the Coach accepted full responsibility, his school accepted that decision, no grievance or complaint was filed against the game officials by anyone connected to the game.

I had no intention of reopening or arguing the story, rather just suggesting that even under unique circumstances there is valid reasoning for keeping the sideline clear as even when enforced properly, which was the consensus of the original story, unintended and unanticipated consequences can bite us on the behind.

You want to nitpick some inconsequential part of that suggestion, go ahead, KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, it's not all that unusual to have some coaches wade through a mountain of ground pepper trying to find evidence of fly droppings to proves some inconsequential point.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 02:23:23 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2011, 07:19:40 PM »
It has nothing to do with being a coach.  Yes, I am a football coach, but I have more experience as an official in numerous sports than I understand that you have.

It has to do with representing facts correctly, and yes, that comes from my law school education.  Someone trying to represent things as you have would be laughed out of court.  You misrepresented FACTS in order to try to make your point, and you got called on it.

But let me guess, you think that's within a referee's discretion to apply what you consider judgment instead of rules, right?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2011, 08:33:45 PM »
It has to do with representing facts correctly, and yes, that comes from my law school education.  Someone trying to represent things as you have would be laughed out of court.  You misrepresented FACTS in order to try to make your point, and you got called on it.

But let me guess, you think that's within a referee's discretion to apply what you consider judgment instead of rules, right?

Actually, I never had any illusion I was anywhere near a court, not did I "misrepresent" anything material in relating something whose point had long been previously concluded.  As for a "Referee's discretion and judgment", allow me to quote from the NFHS Football Officials Manual, which I can understand you may never have seen.

Under"Basic Philosophy & Principles; Prerequisites for Good Officiating:

"While a thorough knowledge of the rules is important, it is not enough to guarantee the competency of an official. There are other attributes that are equally important.  Officials must possess a combination of these if they are to fulfill their duties adequately.  In addition to a complete mastery of the of the rules, officials must have a good knowledge of human nature and the ability to control situations as they arise.  Footballs is a game played by physically sound athletes blocking and tackling one another.  At times, the emotions of players, coaches and crowds run high, and officials must control themselves in order to provide necessary leadership.  The officials duties and responsibilities are fixed by rule, and this manual is designed to help officials carry out these duties.  However, it cannottell officials how to make instant decisions, how to adjust to energencies, how to show poise and control tempet, or how to be courteous and considerate yrt firm and decisive.  Officials who are familiar with the mechanics and understand their individual duties find the intangible requirements of good officiating usually follow naturally.

Officials must have a football sense which supercedes the technical application of the rules so that the game runs smoothly.  Officials are expected to exercise good judgment in applying the rules."

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2011, 08:28:15 AM »
What does the NFHS Official's Manual (which I get every other year when published) have to do with you misrepresenting the facts of a particular case in Texas?  At what point do you say, "Yes, I was incorrect in my statement."

You consistently use this one paragraph to justify making up your own rules and interpretations, and it has caused your opinions and posts to be regularly ridiculed by those that actually understand the rules.

Yes, having "football sense" will sometimes get you to the right place, but you can't know when and how to apply the rules unless you actually know them first.

mbyron

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2011, 09:32:37 AM »
Yes, having "football sense" will sometimes get you to the right place, but you can't know when and how to apply the rules unless you actually know them first.

Agree: "football sense" is an inchoate and incomplete apprehension of the rules. When applied in difficult cases it might yield the correct answer, but it is not reliable nor ever preferable to actual rules knowledge.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Sideline Management... when to flag the restricted zone.
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2011, 10:13:48 AM »
"The art of being wise is knowing what to overlook.” - William James (1842-1910);