Author Topic: Snapper with knee on ground (Read 21976 times)

golfingref · « **on:** October 19, 2011, 08:05:27 PM »

A team in our association has been running a swinging gate in which the center has his knee on the ground while making the snap. Is that legal? I am having a hard time in finding something that says it is / isn't OK.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2011, 08:44:43 PM »

You might consider NF: 2-32-13 "A runner is a player who is in possession of a live ball or is simulating possession of a live ball." and
NF: 4-2-a, "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended: (a) When a runner goes OOB, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

The exceptions to this rule both relate to place-kick holders ONLY.

blandis · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 11:58:29 PM »

But the ball is not live until it has been legally snapped.

NorCalMike · « **Reply #3 on:** October 20, 2011, 03:02:34 AM »

Can you describe the position a little better. I can't think of how the snapper can have a knee down and still have is shoulders somewhat parallel to the LOS as required for lineman.

golfingref · « **Reply #4 on:** October 20, 2011, 06:56:27 AM »

Play was mentioned to me, I have not seen it. My understanding was his shoulders were approximately parallel to the line, following the rule book requirement.

bama_stripes · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2011, 07:26:59 AM »

Since the ball doesn't become live until after a legal snap, and a legal snap requires that it leave the snapper's hand, I'd say it's legal.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:49:18 AM »

Are we sure about this? The ball becomes live when the snap BEGINS, not when it ends. It begins as soon as the snapper makes any motion other than an adjustment. So when he starts to move the ball with his knee on the ground, there is a point in time where he is in possession of a live ball with his knee on the ground.

Look at a punt formation. The snap isn't complete until the ball reaches the punter (or hits the ground). But the ball became live as soon as the snapper started the movement. Otherwise, the offensive or defensive lines moving before the snap reached the punter would be dead ball fouls, and obviously, they aren't.

I don't think the snapper snapping from his knee is a foul, but I think he just caused the down to end.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:54:45 AM »

while i'm scratching my head with this whole deal, the only thing that is coming to mind is a holder and their exception. - I know apples/oranges.
It seems the ball is put in play when it's snapped; however, since it's snapped with the snapper 'down' & he doesn't get an exception then the play is dead when it starts.

HLinNC · « **Reply #8 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:03:28 AM »

Sounds as if we can't have a legal snap because the ball can't become live. If was can't have a legal snap, then the snap in question must be illegal.

TampaSteve · « **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:07:45 AM »

heck I'm still scratching my head.
illegal snap makes sense too.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:26:08 AM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on October 20, 2011, 07:26:59 AM

Since the ball doesn't become live until after a legal snap, and a legal snap requires that it leave the snapper's hand, I'd say it's legal.

NF: 2-40-2 states, "The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in an adjustment." Seems to me, the instant that ball starts to move, it becomes alive, and the snapper's knee on the ground then kills the play.

mbyron · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:27:42 AM »

Quote from: HLinNC on October 20, 2011, 09:03:28 AM

Sounds as if we can't have a legal snap because the ball can't become live. If was can't have a legal snap, then the snap in question must be illegal.

Why can't the ball become live? The snapper is in an otherwise legal position, and there is no foul prior to the snap.

I follow AB's reasoning: dead ball as soon as the snap begins.

HLinNC · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2011, 10:58:02 AM »

Quote

dead ball as soon as the snap begins.

But since the snap can not be completed then the ball can not be made live so we just all stand around and wait for four quarters to expire? No wait, if the clock can't start until the snap and the snap is never completed because the ball has remained dead then the clock isn't running and the game never ends.

Somebody give me the name of the school so I can mark them off the Arbiter.

bigjohn · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:09:38 AM »

ART. 2 . . . A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has
been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #14 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:24:19 AM »

Quote from: HLinNC on October 20, 2011, 10:58:02 AM

But since the snap can not be completed then the ball can not be made live so we just all stand around and wait for four quarters to expire? No wait, if the clock can't start until the snap and the snap is never completed because the ball has remained dead then the clock isn't running and the game never ends.

Somebody give me the name of the school so I can mark them off the Arbiter.

Like everything, a snap has a beginning, a middle and an end. NF: 2-40-2 establishes the beginning, afterwhich NF: 4-2-a determines it's end.

My suggestion would be for your organization to contact the school involved, inform them how the play will be enforced, as a legal snap that will terminate the down immediately, which should, hopefully, avoid the problem repeating.

bigjohn · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:50:03 AM »

ART. 14 . . . A snapper is the player who is facing his opponent’s goal line with
his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and who snaps the ball. In a scrimmage-
kick formation, the snapper remains a snapper until he has had a reasonable
opportunity to regain his balance and protect himself or until he blocks or
moves to otherwise participate in the play.

Doesn't say he can't have a knee on the ground.

wingnut · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2011, 12:00:12 PM »

Two conflicts:

Rule 2-40-1...A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground.

Rule 7-2-2...A's players may stand, crouch or kneel.

Rule 7 does not specifically exclude the snapper from kneeling. But I think the definition is the better argument. It is not otherwise legal for a player to pass or hand the ball backward while his knee is on the ground; the ball becomes dead.

To me, the most logical answer is snap infraction.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2011, 01:36:48 PM »

NF: 7-2-2 reference to "A's players may stand, crouch or kneel." does NOT apply to A players who are in possession of the ball. The instant the snapper, with the ball in his possession and his knee on the ground, starts the snap, his knee being on the ground kills the play (NF: 4-2-2-a)

bigjohn · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2011, 01:40:17 PM »

He is not a runner, the ball isn't LIVE, it doesn't become live untill the ball is SNAPPED, Past tense!

ART. 2 . . . A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has
been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:36:55 PM »

Quote from: bigjohn on October 20, 2011, 01:40:17 PM

He is not a runner, the ball isn't LIVE, it doesn't become live untill the ball is SNAPPED, Past tense!

ART. 2 . . . A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has
been legally snapped or free kicked and a down is in progress.

OK, punter is 14 yards deep. Snapper releases the ball toward the punter. Personal protector cut blocks (BBW) a rusher before the ball gets to the punter. Are you calling this a dead ball foul?

Or same scenario, and the defense directly hits the snapper while his head is still down? Dead ball foul?

Of couse not. The ball doesn't become live AFTER the snap is complete, it becomes live AS SOON AS the snapper moves the ball.

NWA_UMP · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:47:11 PM »

I heard them talking about it last night. I have not had the team in question but I too was confused on the description of how the play is run. I was not sure if his shoulders were somewhat parallel to LOS or not...I find it hard to see how they would be. It is a swinging gate play...so they are not snapping the ball straight back. It is at an angle away from the knee that is down. On any trick play, we are supposed to take the letter of each rule that governs such action in a very specific manner. In other words, it better be 100% to the letter of the rule...if not, kill it. I would at least have a snap infraction if his shoulders were the least bit turned.

mbyron · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:56:23 PM »

Quote from: NWA_UMP on October 20, 2011, 02:47:11 PM

I would at least have a snap infraction if his shoulders were the least bit turned.

Why would that be a (dead-ball) snap infraction? Sounds like a (live ball) formation foul.

bama_stripes · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »

Quote from: Atlanta Blue on October 20, 2011, 02:36:55 PM

The ball doesn't become live AFTER the snap is complete, it becomes live AS SOON AS the snapper moves the ball.

If that's true, then why is a snap infraction a dead ball foul?

WCFB · « **Reply #23 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:17:59 PM »

The ball is not live until is has met the requirements of rule 2-1-2.

I am separating a live ball and a down in progress. A down begins with a legal snap. The snapper has not committed any snaps infractions. Since there can be no illegal snap infractions once, the ball immediately leaves the snappers hand(s) we meet the requirements for a down to be in progress.

Now lets look at when the ball becomes live. After the snapper immediately releases the football it must touch the ground or any player before it touches an A lineman. Once the ball touches ground or any player after immediately being released by the snapper it fulfills the requirements of rule 2-1-2 and is a live ball by definition. Therefore the play should not be ruled dead because the snapper is not a runner in possession of a live ball with his knee on the ground.

I think we are confusing "The play is live vs the ball is live"

Quote from: Atlanta Blue on October 20, 2011, 02:36:55 PM

OK, punter is 14 yards deep. Snapper releases the ball toward the punter. Personal protector cut blocks (BBW) a rusher before the ball gets to the punter. Are you calling this a dead ball foul?

Or same scenario, and the defense directly hits the snapper while his head is still down? Dead ball foul?

Of couse not. The ball doesn't become live AFTER the snap is complete, it becomes live AS SOON AS the snapper moves the ball.

Because a down is in progress and the "play is live" we could have a BBW, but the "Ball" is not live until it meets the requirements for rule 2-1-2. We do have a down in progress so we penalize the BBW.

I used the following.
1-3-1, 2-1-2, 2-7-2, 2-32-9, 2-32-13, 2-32-14, 2-40-1, 2-40-2, 2-40-3, 4-2-2, 7-1-2, 7-1-3.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2011, 07:16:52 PM »

Quote from: LO_Guvna on October 20, 2011, 05:17:59 PM

I think we are confusing "The play is live vs the ball is live"
Because a down is in progress and the "play is live" we could have a BBW, but the "Ball" is not live until it meets the requirements for rule 2-1-2. We do have a down in progress so we penalize the BBW.

How can the "play" be live during a "dead" ball?

Author Topic: Snapper with knee on ground (Read 21976 times)

mbyron

wingnut

mbyron