Author Topic: Snapper with knee on ground  (Read 21982 times)

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Offline Rulesman

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2011, 07:35:26 PM »
Somebody give me the name of the school so I can mark them off the Arbiter.
It's got to be either Shiloh or P.A.  yEs:
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2011, 10:16:54 PM »
I believe this is legal as long as all other requirements are met.  He's a snapper not a runner, that's a clear definitional difference, thus the conditions for a runner causing the ball to become dead are not in play.  There is precedence in the rule book for this with a holder. 

I also agree with others, the play has started, but the snap is not completed so the ball is not live thereby bolstering that it can be done.  The rulebook envisions that players can stand, crouch and kneel.

Finally rule 2-37 in part "...a rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act, it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited...."

I guess I don't see a reason it's illegal
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Offline WCFB

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2011, 10:49:04 PM »
How can the "play" be live during a "dead" ball?
It is not live during a dead ball. Follow me on this for second. Rule 2-1-1 A dead ball is a ball not in play. The ball becomes dead during the interval between downs.

Now we move on to a live ball in play. Rule 2-1-2 A live ball is a ball in play. A ball becomes live when the ball has been legally snapped.

Lets look at a legal snap. As long as the snapper does not violate rules 7-1-2,3 he has not committed a snap infraction and the snap is legal at this point. Once the snapper has immediately released the ball he is free from committing any snap infractions because no snap infraction may occur after the snapper has released the ball. When the ball is immediately released from the snapper the ball is live however, the snap is not over. The snap is over when the ball touches a back or the ground before it touches a A lineman.

A down is in progress once the snapper releases the ball because, when the ball is released and it is determined that the snap is legal the down begins by definition and at that point the ball is live.

My OP contradicts this because i said the ball was not live until it touched the ground or was touched by a back, but since AB has responded he has helped move the discussion along... and i was hoping that he would.

I also agree with others, the play has started, but the snap is not completed so the ball is not live thereby bolstering that it can be done.

"the play has started, but the snap is not completed."

I am saying that the ball is live before the the snap is completed. I say the ball is live when the snapper releases the football and has not committed any snap infractions however, the snap is not over until all the requirements for a snap or fulfilled
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:57:03 PM by LO_Guvna »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2011, 11:14:03 PM »
What initially seemed like a somewhat clear question has caused a lot of research looking at specific language of several rules, which in and of itself is a good thing.  That research causes me to reverse my position on this question.

Considering that the snapper was in possession of the ball, and that when he began the snap (NF: 2-40-2) the ball became alive, and that a "runner" having a knee on the ground while possessing a live ball, renders the ball dead, (NF: 4-2-2-a)and that any player in possession of a live ball is a "Runner" (NF: 2-32-13) seemed to point towards the ball being dead once the snap began with a knee on the ground.

However, "Upon further review" and consideration of NF: 2-34-1, which states, "A ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player after it has been handed or snapped to him or after he has caught or recoverd it, it seems my previous conclusion falls apart as the snapper's grasping the ball to snap it, having NOT been handed, snapped, caught or recovered by the snapper doesn't meet the requirements of possessing a live ball, which means he's NOT in "player possession" of the ball, which means he's NOT a "runner", which means NF: 4-2-2-a, "the ball becomes dead when a runner.....allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.", doesn't apply to this situation.

Once again, it seems, the more you think you know about Rule 2, only underscores how much you have yet to learn.

Offline NWA_UMP

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2011, 11:50:51 PM »
Shiloh is the team

Offline WCFB

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2011, 01:27:52 AM »


However, "Upon further review" and consideration of NF: 2-34-1, which states, "A ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player after it has been handed or snapped to him or after he has caught or recoverd it, it seems my previous conclusion falls apart as the snapper's grasping the ball to snap it, having NOT been handed, snapped, caught or recovered by the snapper doesn't meet the requirements of possessing a live ball, which means he's NOT in "player possession" of the ball, which means he's NOT a "runner", which means NF: 4-2-2-a, "the ball becomes dead when a runner.....allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.", doesn't apply to this situation.

Once again, it seems, the more you think you know about Rule 2, only underscores how much you have yet to learn.

I missed 2-34-1, if i had remembered to look at possession it would have made things much easier to explain my case and that really answers the debate. This was a good discussion. I plan on bringing this to my rules discussion group next week.

Offline bigjohn

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2011, 08:18:00 AM »
So Lo, where do you stand on slapping the snap?


Offline WCFB

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Re: Snapper with knee on ground
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2011, 02:50:25 PM »
So Lo, where do you stand on slapping the snap?

I have been thinking about this one. Ill join the OP