Author Topic: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)  (Read 18802 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« on: October 23, 2011, 09:47:33 PM »
Looks like there was some disagreement among the crew as to this, but if you are going with invalid signal it is probably a good idea to not give the returner an extra 5 yards.   ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF8572aOl4k

Offline TxBJ

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2011, 09:55:21 PM »
And in fact if you call that an invalid FC signal you have to take away 5 yards for delay of game. Personally I'm not calling that a signal.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 03:53:31 PM »
Downgrade :!#

Offline Kalle

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 04:10:09 PM »
Yup, first downgrade for calling that signal an invalid fair catch signal (no waving action whatsoever), second downgrade for not flagging team B for a delay of game (50 yard advance after several whistles, no excuse), and a big third downgrade for losing the spot and awarding team B an extra five yards. Not their day...

Offline TXMike

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 04:54:49 AM »
ACC speaks:

By Coley Harvey, Orlando Sentinel
 
TALLAHASSEE — This week, it's fair-catchgate that has Florida State feeling a little flustered. And this time, the Seminoles may have a good reason to be a little upset.

For the third game in the past month, ACC officials have drawn the ire of FSU fans after what they believe is a spate of strange calls have gone against the Seminoles. Following the latest set of odd rulings from referees, even coach Jimbo Fisher has started speaking out. He's a little concerned that in this case, one wrong was tried to be made right.

"I don't care if it's good or bad, I just want them to call the game the right way, consistently," Fisher said.

In the second quarter of Saturday's 41-16 win over Maryland, Seminoles punt returner Greg Reid was penalized for an "illegal fair catch" when he pointed at the ground ahead of a return. Reid told reporters after the game he was trying to inform his blockers that the ball was hitting the ground and that they needed to move accordingly.

Once the ball bounced into his hands, Reid weaved his way past a couple of Maryland coverage players before referees began trying to whistle the play dead. Some Terrapins began pulling up just before Reid made a move on punter Nick Ferrara to sprint toward the end zone for a potential touchdown.

"I was under the (impression) if you don't wave your arms, if you just point, you're fine," Fisher said Monday during his weekly news conference. "And that was my interpretation of the rule."

Rule 2, Section 8, Article 2 of the NCAA rulebook states that "a valid (fair catch) signal is a signal given by a player … who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side-to-side of his body more than once."

Officials ruled that Reid's point in the air was a valid fair catch signal.

ACC coordinator of officials Doug Rhoads partially stood behind his referees Monday, but since interpretation of the rule is so constricting, he understood Fisher's frustrations.

"When a player points, raises his arm or anything other than a valid fair catch (signal), there's room for interpretation," Rhoads said in a statement sent to FSU's sports information office. "It's way too tight of an interpretation to be called. Way too technical."

So, with that said, in Fisher's eyes, "it shouldn't have been called."

Part of what may have affected the ruling was the fact that on an earlier punt return, Reid made a similar gesture ahead of a punt he did not return. He made a motion that could have been interpreted – via the NCAA rulebook, at least – as a valid fair catch. Nothing was called by referees on that play, but, knowing that, they may have been on the lookout for the next time they saw Reid make any kind of movement.

Fisher doesn't buy that, though.

"Why should that have any carryover?" Fisher said. "That play should have been called then. I mean, that's like if a guy robs a store twice and you don't catch him and he robs a store the third time, why is that a crime the third time and not the first two times?"

After the play was blown dead and was upheld as a spot-foul infraction, on the very next play, officials turned a blind eye to something Fisher called "extremely dangerous."

At the end of a 31-yard pass completion from quarterback EJ Manuel to receiver Rodney Smith, a Maryland defender brought Smith down by the back of his shoulder pads in a horsecollar fashion. The play occurred right in front of Fisher near the FSU sideline. With two officials standing near the play, he was visibly perturbed that no penalty was charged.

"I'm standing beside you," Fisher said, excitedly. "You talk about hits to the head. Horsecollars are extremely dangerous. Horsecollars along with the headshots and the onside kick – which I think is a very dangerous play – horsecollars … You talk about chops all the time? Well that horsecollar breaks more legs and blows more legs than any chop.

"When you grab a guy by the pads and you pull him and you fall back, if his weight's down, legs will snap and knees will pop."

Smith got up and was OK after the play.

ACC officials first became Public Enemy No. 1 for the FSU fan base three weeks ago after a report surfaced on an FSU message board claiming the ACC privately accepted responsibility for having missed seven penalties ruled against the Seminoles in their loss against Clemson.

An ACC official later denied the reports claims when approached by the Orlando Sentinel.

Following a loss to Wake Forest the week after, fans were beside themselves when video began surfacing on YouTube of an official moving the spot of a football on a crucial fourth down as the play was being measured. With FSU on defense, the Wake Forest ball was moved a few inches closer to the first down line.


Offline clearwall

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
Quote
"Rule 2, Section 8, Article 2 of the NCAA rulebook states that "a valid (fair catch) signal is a signal given by a player … who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side-to-side of his body more than once."

Officials ruled that Reid's point in the air was a valid fair catch signal.

Nope, keep reading for what they REALLY ruled on the play...

Rule 2 Sect 8 Art 3..."An INVALID signal is any waving signal by a player...a)that does not meet the requirements of article 2;"

Agreed, though, that was a bad bad call

Diablo

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 12:30:24 PM »
ACC speaks:
By Coley Harvey, Orlando Sentinel
 
"I was under the (impression) if you don't wave your arms, if you just point, you're fine," Fisher said Monday during his weekly news conference. "And that was my interpretation of the rule."

Rule 2, Section 8, Article 2 of the NCAA rulebook states that "a valid (fair catch) signal is a signal given by a player … who has obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side-to-side of his body more than once."

Officials ruled that Reid's point in the air was a valid fair catch signal.

ACC coordinator of officials Doug Rhoads partially stood behind his referees Monday, but since interpretation of the rule is so constricting, he understood Fisher's frustrations.

"When a player points, raises his arm or anything other than a valid fair catch (signal), there's room for interpretation," Rhoads said in a statement sent to FSU's sports information office. "It's way too tight of an interpretation to be called. Way too technical."

So, with that said, in Fisher's eyes, "it shouldn't have been called."

Part of what may have affected the ruling was the fact that on an earlier punt return, Reid made a similar gesture ahead of a punt he did not return. He made a motion that could have been interpreted – via the NCAA rulebook, at least – as a valid fair catch. Nothing was called by referees on that play, but, knowing that, they may have been on the lookout for the next time they saw Reid make any kind of movement.

The information in the article is a bit confusing; hence, suspect. 
First, according to the video, the R stated that Reid's pointing was a "illegal" fair catch signal.  He probably meant invalid, but still they didn't rule it was a valid signal as the article states.
Second, passage 2-8-2 is not the relevant rule citation.  The waving issue appears in 2-8-3, "An invalid signal is any waving signal ...."
Third, the reason crew did not make the same call in the earlier punt was that Reid did not catch or recover the kick.  Consequently, no apparent reason to determine whether there was a valid (illegal?), valid, or no fair catch signal.     

Offline TXMike

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 12:39:37 PM »
From the Tallahassee Democrat newspaper:

ACC officials made mistake on Reid's punt return
 

By Corey Clark and Ira Schoffel
Democrat Staff Writers
Referees should not have blown their whistles on the punt return that Greg Reid appeared to return for a touchdown Saturday against Maryland, the ACC's coordinator of officials told the Tallahassee Democrat on Monday.

On the play in question, Reid pointed toward the ground where he expected the ball to bounce. As soon as he picked the ball up following a bounce, the referees whistled the play dead.

During the game the head referee told FSU head coach Jimbo Fisher pointing at the ball was a violation. But that's not accurate, according to Doug Rhoads, who oversees ACC officials.

"It was overly technical," he said. "A pure point is legal. … Waving is the crux of (the invalid fair-catch rule) because you try to avoid any coverage team being at a competitive disadvantage."

After reviewing the game tape, Rhoads said he believes the officials were influenced by hand gestures Reid made on previous plays.

On both, he appeared to be gesturing for a fair catch but ran after fielding the ball.

Once, the officials let him run for a three-yard return. They blew the other one dead immediately.

"It's a fine line of interpretation," Rhoads said. "You have to see the whole story, the litany of things that led to the call."

"Why should there any be carryover?" FSU head coach Jimbo Fisher asked. "That (three-yard return) should have been called then. I mean that's like a guy, if he robs the store twice and you don't (arrest) him and robs the store a third time – why is that a crime the third time and not the first two times?

"Seriously. I don't care if it's good or bad. Just call the game the right way. Consistently. That's all. I was under the assumption that if you don't waive your arm, if you just point, you're fine. That was my interpretation of the rule."

And Fisher was correct.

"Pure pointing should be OK," Rhoads said.

It should be noted — and was by both Rhoads and ACC associate commissioner Michael Kelly — that it's impossible to know if Reid actually would have scored on the return as some of the Maryland coverage team immediately stopped pursuing him once the whistle was incorrectly blown.


Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 02:03:14 PM »
I do not get how they missed the spot, it appears to me the Bj marks the end of the kick at the 20.  Was the bag kicked?

Diablo

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 02:25:58 PM »
I do not get how they missed the spot, it appears to me the Bj marks the end of the kick at the 20.  Was the bag kicked?

Maybe the crew intended to penalize Team B 5 yds for delay of game, but inadvertently walked the wrong way???

Offline TXMike

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 02:31:54 PM »
Since we are guessing, here is my guess.   The returner had made it 5 yards before the first whistle tooted and the crew decided to give it to them at that spot, as in an IW

Diablo

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 02:46:14 PM »
Since we are guessing, here is my guess.   The returner had made it 5 yards before the first whistle tooted and the crew decided to give it to them at that spot, as in an IW

But according to the R's announcement ("illegal/invalid fair catch"), the returner carried a dead ball. You can't have an IW during a dead ball.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 02:58:21 PM »
And there was no announcement for illegal advance/delay of game either.   On this one I don't think we can put a whole lot of stock in what was said cause there was clearly confusion.  (B looked like he was letting play go and it was F or S who tweeted). 

According to the box score:

4-15 at Md40
Ferrara punt 35 yards to the FS25, fair catch by REID,G..
#5-Reid ruled for inadvertently calling for a fair catch.
1-10  at Fs25
FLORIDA STATE drive start at 14:43.

mbyron

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 03:50:30 PM »
"inadvertently calling a fair catch."

Good one!   :!#

chymechowder

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 01:02:51 PM »
haha!  but actually it's a better description than "illegal" fair catch!

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 04:05:36 PM »
AR-6-5-3 -V rules that a "get away" signal is an invalid signal.  What if the "point" was for his players to "get away".  I've always been taught at various clinics that a player is able to shade his eyes from the sun or light, but anything beyond that would be an invalid signal.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2011, 05:12:00 PM »
By defintion, if it is not a "waving signal" it is not an invalid FC signal.   

Maybe someone can look at the older books but I think there was an evolution to this wherein  at one point ANY signal that was not a valid signal was an invalid signal and then there was clarity added by stating any WAVING signal that was not valid was an invalid signal

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »
By defintion, if it is not a "waving signal" it is not an invalid FC signal.   

Maybe someone can look at the older books but I think there was an evolution to this wherein  at one point ANY signal that was not a valid signal was an invalid signal and then there was clarity added by stating any WAVING signal that was not valid was an invalid signal

2009-2010:
Invalid Signal
ARTICLE 3. An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B
that does not meet the requirements of a valid signal (Rule 6-5-3).


From 2008:
Invalid Signal
ARTICLE 3. An invalid signal is any signal by a player of Team B that does
not meet the requirements of a valid signal (Rule 6-5-3).

From 2007:
Invalid Signal
ARTICLE 3. An invalid signal is any signal by a player of Team B that does
not meet the requirements of a valid signal (Rule 6-5-3).

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2011, 06:46:30 PM »
Mike's memory is accurate.  A review of the 2000 thru 2006 hardcopy books shows wording identical to 2007:  "An invalid signal is any signal by a player of Team B that does not meet the requirements of a valid signal"

The added requirement for "waving" was new in the 2009-2010 book.
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Diablo

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2011, 08:05:51 PM »
By defintion, if it is not a "waving signal" it is not an invalid FC signal.   

My strong "senses" say that "waving" was added to the former 2-7-3 (current 2-8-3) to allow a receiver to point out the location of the ball independent of any fair catch signal.

Offline mccormicw

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Re: Invalid Fair catch Signal ? (video)
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 10:19:01 AM »
Any chance that waving was added so the returner could shade his eyes from the sun?

Can a receiver stick his hand straight above his head (arm fully extended) and not wave it (regardless of sun, lighting, etc)?  Does that make it invalid?