Spot Question?

[New Back]

Situation:

4th and 15 from 30 yard line. A12 drops to pass, but instead hands off to A34 on a draw play, A 34 is tackled behind the LOS at the 34yl, meanwhile, A88 has gone downfield in a simulated pass pattern and is held/tackled by B24 at the 25yl.  Where is spot to mark off the penalty?

1. End of Run
2. Line of scrimmage
3. Spot of foul
4. Are there any other aspects to be added to the foul?

I look forward to your responses   

[bulldogs1msu]

basic spot is end of run.  I go with answer #1.  10 yd penalty and replay 4 th down

[JimD]

Yep.  Question 1 to ask is "Is this a running play or a loose ball play?".  This is a running play so the basic spot is the end of the run.  All defensive penalties go from the basic spot (All but one principle) so we have a defensive hold, penalize 10 yards from the basic spot (end of the run).  4th & about 9 on the 24.

[mbyron]

Correct: the enforcement spot for all fouls by B is the basic spot, in this case the end of the run.

4th/9 for A from the B24.

[HLinNC]

ditto

[Tom.OH]

... And an asst. coach will be screaming for an automatic first down...

[RS]

Did the hold have any effect on the play?
If not, I'm not throwing that flag.

[UmpinK]

I was kind of thinking the same thing:  if it isn't flagrant, I would not "see" that one. 

[mbyron]

I was kind of thinking the same thing:  if it isn't flagrant, I would not "see" that one.

I don't think that's the same thing at all. The advantage/disadvantage issue is different from flagrant/not flagrant. And for a hold away from the play, we can see it (or "see" it) just fine: by rule it's not a foul.

[NWA_UMP]

I agree with others...why throw that flag. It would the same as a hold by the left tackle on a play around the right end.

[dch]

I think most of us agree that defensive holding well away from a running play would not warrant a flag.  If it was a personal foul type of situation (instead of just holding) then it probably would. 

If an eligible receiver, down field, was held while the QB was looking for someone to pass to - then it should be called.  But that is not what the original post asked about.

However I don't understand the comment that said defensive holding "by rule it is not a foul".  Rule 6-2-3c says that defensive holding is a foul.

regards,

[HLinNC]

First off the OP has been extrapolated.  Question was about the spot of enforcement.  The foul has been called in the OP.  Making up shoulda, coulda, woulda has nothing to do with it.

Second- the op stated "held/tackled".  Given the covering official probably has no clue that the play turned into a draw, he is expected to eat his flag?

[JimD]

The problem with not throwing a flag on a hold on 4th and long is that you don't know if B's hold of a potential receiver had an affect on the play or not.  Perhaps A only handed off when the QB saw no receivers open.  I'm all for not calling an offensive hold on this play, but a defensive hold is very different if there is even a chance that A would throw the ball.

When in doubt, why reward the team that knowingly committed a foul that may have affected the play.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: GIven that the OP was questioning where the correct enforcement spot would be, clearly the correct answer is end of the run.

Now the bigger question of whether an official should be flagging this should be answered with a resounding "NO." Unless the defender picked the receiver up over his head and body-slammed him into the turf, keep the flag in your pocket. After a 'simple' hold of the receiver, the covering official should take a quick look at the play in progress to see if the 'infraction' has any relevance to the play. If he sees that it's a draw play, by all means necessary he should resist the temptation to throw the flag.

[BIG UMP]

I don't think that's the same thing at all. The advantage/disadvantage issue is different from flagrant/not flagrant. And for a hold away from the play, we can see it (or "see" it) just fine: by rule it's not a foul.

Please explain how "bu rule its not a foul".

In my opinion, by rule it is a foul, by philosophy, we don't normally call holding away from the play.

[mpmorris]

It was an exercise in thinking....take the questions for what is written down and give everything else a break. Good responses though.