Author Topic: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act  (Read 37176 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2011, 01:27:37 PM »
When I started this today I said I knew I was out on a shaky ledge.  As I fall into the precipice all I can say  is....I just don't think this scenario was ever completly thought through until now........

chymechowder

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2011, 01:33:52 PM »
The rules are fairly clear about what constitutes a personal foul.  My idea of the "normal" KCI is the gunner who simply tackles or runs into the returner before he is elgible to do so.  As soon as he does something that is also a PF, i.e. striking, tripping, or block below the waist (yeah I knew you would like that one); or targeting, then he has committed another foul and opened his team up to a potential tack on situation.  A "violent shoulder hit" to the chest or midsection is not a PF in most situations nor should it be in a KCI situation.  However, it could be deemed "flagrant" and still qualify for a DQ.

I've been warming up to your targeting/tack on conga line, but this part where the needle skips across the record for me.  how could something be flagrant enough for a DQ, but somehow NOT rise to the level of PF?

you seem to be saying the following (assume for all 3 that the return man B20 is fouled at the B-10 and Team B ends up advancing to midfield):

1. Gunner A80 is standing next to B20 and brushes up against him before the catch =  flag KCI. declined

2. Gunner A80 sprints 40 yards, never slows down, and puts his helmet into B20's chest before the ball arrives, severely injuring B20  =  flags for KCI and targeting.  kci declined. targeting accepted. tack on to the A-35

3. Gunner A80 sprints 40 yards, never slows down, puts his shoulder into B20's chest before the ball arrives, severely injuring B20 =  flag for KCI.  A80 ejected for a flagrant foul, but it's not a personal foul. no tack on.

in for penny, in for a pound, imo. if #2 gets a tack on, how can #3 not?  :D

chymechowder

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2011, 01:46:39 PM »
how bout this for a solution:  Just make any flagarant KCI eligible for tack on?

so that way, if we have a brush up, or an arm pull, or if the receiver has to detour around a Team A player---and team B still manages to advance the ball more than 15 yards--then there's no tack on. as there shouldnt be. (My guess is that this is the reason KCI isnt' a tack on to begin with. they probably envisioned a play where the foul wasn't even bad enough to prevent a good return, so why should B get bonus yards on top?)

but if the KCI is an ejectable offense, then we tack on. just to make sure that B doesn't get jobbed out of any yards after a brutal hit.

ALRef

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2011, 10:12:22 AM »
I think we're losing control here.  We have had the tack on for K fouls for a few years now.  NEVER until now has anyone suggested early tackling of the receiver is anything other than a simple KCI enforcement!

I do not agree that this could be enforced at the subsequent dead ball spot.

I think control was lost a long time ago on this issue....

ALRef

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2011, 10:21:55 AM »
I had a personal conversation with RR and he agrees the rule book doesn't seem to allow the penalty to be tacked on (expect that to change with the next edition). He also said the crew didn't enforce the penalty incorrectly. He simply said that in this particular case, it would have been acceptable to tack the penalty on to the dead ball spot (even though the rule book doesn't seem to allow it). As I said very early on, it's plays like this that lead to rules/editorial changes. On the field, we can't make the rules up as we go along, but now that RR has weighed in we know how it should be handled. To try to compare a play like this to a hold doesn't make sense to me.

Offline TXMike

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2011, 10:31:29 AM »
Have you seen the play and his narration in the latest CFO video ?

ALRef

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Re: For Those Who Do Not Think KCI and Targeting Can Be Called on the Same Act
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2011, 10:57:12 AM »
Have you seen the play and his narration in the latest CFO video ?

Yep. And I also know what he told me when we talked.