Author Topic: Penn State  (Read 20859 times)

Offline Joe Stack

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Penn State
« on: November 10, 2011, 01:05:42 PM »
What a mess. What are your thoughts?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 01:09:55 PM »
Stolen from an other board..
Let's see if Sandusky enjoys his showers at the State Pen as much as he enjoyed them at Penn State

Grant - AR

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 02:19:32 PM »
What a mess. What are your thoughts?

Bad situation all the way around.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 03:10:27 PM »
sad for all parties involved.
Curious if the party with 40+ yrs of service will receive the university employee's pension, or due to circumstances if will it be revoked

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 03:22:18 PM »
Pensions are usually contractual.  If the contract allows them to revoke, then maybe so.  But I would be surprised if it is written that way.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 03:24:36 PM »
my thoughts were: pensions are generally revoked if terminated for cause (fired).
obviously, i'm no NCAA coach so no idea how that works.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 05:13:18 PM »
my thoughts were: pensions are generally revoked if terminated for cause (fired).
obviously, i'm no NCAA coach so no idea how that works.

Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 05:53:50 PM »
Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?

He knowlingly hush-hushed repeated federal offences conducted under his watch? I mean, how much more depraved can you be than "Yeha, my assistant coach BUTT-rapes little boys, but he runs a helluva defensive backfield so I consider it a wash?"


Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 07:50:52 PM »
Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?

Because there are some eployment contracts that have conduct provisos in them which remove any pension in the event of certain acts/events.  Since this was a state school, they probably had namby pamby language that essentially guarantees him a pension , even if convicted of serial murder.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2011, 07:33:21 AM »
Speculation, rumor, assumptions & gossip aside, given the FACTS that have thus far been established and reported, what "cause" for even considering a pension revocation have been established for Coach Paterno?
Al:
Maybe you had a bad day, but not sure what provoked the respomnse.  I'm not rumoring anything. The newspaper said, "fired".  Round thease parts, that's a synonym for "terminated".

My thought process was, "goodness, the guy is 80+yrs old, and (per the paper, 'allegedly' - don't want you to think I was rumoring or being a yenta) he was "fired".  Gosh, will he lose his pension and be able to pay the bills."

I even acknowledged I didn't know how NCAA coaches' pensions work.

I certainly didn't make my inquiry for a combatative and/or abrasive response.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:36:19 AM by TampaSteve »

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 07:49:08 AM »
JoPa made over $1 mil a year, I'm sure he's banked some of it.  Penn State has been a Nike school for years.  I'm sure his shoe contract was worth more than his school contract.  He'll land on his feet, even if they do whack his pension.

My opinion, sorry, sickening state of affairs.  People knew and covered it up, all in the name of the "program".
Lives will be ruined all the way around this thing.  To me, its comparable to the abuse scandal in the Catholic church.  They tried to keep it hushed up too.

In a medieval world, we'd torture Sandusky to death. Fortunately for him, he gets to escape the HECK he brought to these boys and will live out the balance of his life in a cell, probably checked off into protective custody so the same thing doesn't get to happen to him.

Offline NWA_UMP

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 07:52:05 AM »
I, personally think the entire staff needs to be terminated...EVERYONE. I'm not just talking about coaches either...trainers, equipment guys, etc...if you were directly working with football...gone.


Former Oklahoma coach Barry Switzer says the closeness of coaching staffs and the continuity of Joe Paterno's Penn State staff makes one thing almost certain: “Everyone on that staff had to have known.”

Read more: http://newsok.com/penn-state-tragedy-barry-switzer-says-joe-paterno-had-to-go/article/3621872#ixzz1dP8hnp7O

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 09:39:02 AM »
He knowlingly hush-hushed repeated federal offences conducted under his watch? I mean, how much more depraved can you be than "Yeha, my assistant coach BUTT-rapes little boys, but he runs a helluva defensive backfield so I consider it a wash?"

Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known.  Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.

It has been reported that he passed (whatever details he had) on to the APPROPRIATE and DESIGNATED administrator than handles issues of any misconduct, because at the time Sandusky was a FORMER employee, no longer under any connection to the football program. 

Given a whole lot of hindsight, Paterno in retrospect indicates he should of, and wishes he had, followed the allegation more closely.  You want to call that an error in judgment, I won't argue with that assessment, but without KNOWING that he was told specifically and understood what we NOW KNOW actually was taking place, I'm willing to consider his lifetime behavior and give him some "benefit of the doubt".

WHEN, and IF, additional FACTS surface suggesting greater culpability, I'll revist my assessment.  Until then, I'm going to wait and see what unfolds before I give in to speculation, rumor, presumptions and a lot of guess work and throw a 60+ year career of outstanding and consistent community service under the bus. IF it turns out Paterno actually is guilty of what you ASSUME he is, there will be opportunity to proclaim his guilt.  If the FACTS prove otherwise, how are you going to clean off the mud you're throwing, based on speculation?  If any group should understand that you need to see the entire foul, before you throw your flag, we're it, and there's a lot of details about this incident that are currently "under review".
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 09:43:18 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 09:44:56 AM »
Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known.  Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.

Forget the newspapers...read the grand jury report, if you can stand it.  And then use common sense.  The 2 together should make it clear to you.

Offline RickKY

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 02:19:54 PM »
I keep thinking that if the grad asst saw a man raping a boy in the shower, why didn't he call police?  If he had seen a fire? 9-1-1.  A player raping a cheerleader?  9-1-1  A car accident?  9-1-1  So why if witnessing that event would you wait 1 day and tell your head coach?  Then I think, once you've got that image in your head, how can even look at the man again, much less allow him continued access to the facilities?  Joe Pa may have fulfilled his duty as far as the university policy goes, but what decent man allows that to go without following up.  If a policy calls for you to notify your superiors, I doubt it denies you the obligation of notifying police.  It was a crime afterall.

This is a horrible situation for so many people on so many levels.  I find it difficult to wrap my brain around how long this went on before authorities finally became involved.  An now the mess its created adn the response of so many irrational people is appauling.   Mind boggling.
Rick
Don't park in the spaces marked, "Reserved for Umpires."  ~John McSherry

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 02:27:17 PM »
I keep thinking that if the grad asst saw a man raping a boy in the shower, why didn't he call police?  If he had seen a fire? 9-1-1.  A player raping a cheerleader?  9-1-1  A car accident?  9-1-1  So why if witnessing that event would you wait 1 day and tell your head coach?  Then I think, once you've got that image in your head, how can even look at the man again, much less allow him continued access to the facilities?  Joe Pa may have fulfilled his duty as far as the university policy goes, but what decent man allows that to go without following up.  If a policy calls for you to notify your superiors, I doubt it denies you the obligation of notifying police.  It was a crime afterall.

This is a horrible situation for so many people on so many levels.  I find it difficult to wrap my brain around how long this went on before authorities finally became involved.  An now the mess its created adn the response of so many irrational people is appauling.   Mind boggling.
Have you seen the size of the so called "coach" who was the Grad Asst at that time when he saw this?  He ain't no little guy.  He should have intervened immediately, forget the police.  How ,any of us would have been content to just report it to the police, much less just report it to our dady and then our idol joePa???   Not me I can tell you that.

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 03:29:55 PM »
Perhaps you might take a deep breath and come down from your high moral perch, just for a second until a lot more FACTS are known.  Maybe my area newspapers aren't as up to date as yours, but as of this morning I'm still reading that there are NO DETAILS about what Coach Paterno was actually told about what was observed.

Al, the fact is, He was told that SOMETHING happened. He told the AD. The guy that is accused of these acts, while not on his staff at the time, was someone with whom he had a long time relationship. Don't you think he might have picked up the phone and asked the guy what the heck happened? As far as any information I have seen so far (I will stipulate to your point about additional information to be forthcoming), Paterno did not even speak to Sandusky about it.

If I have my dates right, this occurred during or right before spring break- Spring Practice is over, no game to prepare for for a couple of months- how busy could he have been? He is the head of that program, and while not having the title, he is the leader of that University. If he had wanted that investigated and resolved- it would have been.

Has Paterno done a lot of good over the years? Sure. He won a lot of football games, built a winning program, donated a large amount of money to the University, etc. All very good things for which he should be commended. In this case, while he may not have done anything illegal, by not acting in a more forceful manner, he enabled this behavior to continue, and for this one situation he should be condemned.

Does this one situation wipe out all the good he's done over the course of his career, no, but neither does all the good he's done over the years absolve him from blame in this situation.


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 10:55:16 PM »
The guy that is accused of these acts, while not on his staff at the time, was someone with whom he had a long time relationship. Don't you think he might have picked up the phone and asked the guy what the heck happened? 

 he enabled this behavior to continue, and for this one situation he should be condemned.

Does this one situation wipe out all the good he's done over the course of his career, no, but neither does all the good he's done over the years absolve him from blame in this situation.

I have not suggested that anybody be absolved of any blame they may have earned, and Coach Paterno has acknowledged, in hindsight, "he wises he had done more".  Absolving is not the question, rushing to all sorts of judgements, assumptions,  speculations and premature piling on seems more the issue.  Was Joe Paterno told a crime was committed, I don't KNOW what he was told and it doesn't sound like too many others KNOW exactly what he was told.

I have no idea, whether Coach Paterno and his former assistant were on speaking terms at the time of this incident, do you?  Sandusky "retired" 3 years earlier, do you KNOW anything about what may have prompted that retirement, I don't.

If he was on speaking terms with Sandusky, approached him and Sandusky vehemently denied the whole thing, what would Paterno then do?  Paterno didn't see what happened, he was told what happened and there is real question about exactly what he was told.

If I'm following correctly, he reported the incident to the appropriate person immediately to investigate and confirm, or reject, the accusation.  He didn't cover it up or hide it, he reported it, right away.  There are some that are consistently so quick and eager to presume the absolute worst possible cause for what, at times, may be an error in judgment or a mistake, based on speculation, exaggeration and pure rumor.  What exactly is so horrible about waiting for all the facts to be understood before making a rock solid conclusion?  Isn't that what we're trained for and supposed to do? 

 

Roundncircles

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 09:43:21 PM »
Your defense of Joe Pa is deplorable... I agree we should wait for more "facts" but only to determine if Joe should go to prison or not... The grand jury report is a powerful indictment of Joe... This was not an isolated incident... These vile acts took place over 8 years... if Joe didn't know more he should have... This is a long way from being over....

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2011, 06:27:56 AM »
Was Joe Paterno told a crime was committed, I don't KNOW what he was told and it doesn't sound like too many others KNOW exactly what he was told.

Again....have you READ the Grand Jury report?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2011, 07:41:29 AM »
Quote
These vile acts took place over 8 years.
 

 Actually there are reports back to at least 1998 and maybe even 1994.   His abrupt resignation at age 55 in 1999 now begins to make sense.  The party line was "he found out that he was never going to be Paterno's heir".   Maybe they told him to get out and that was the cover or he was told he would never be the head coach because of the stories floating around.

 

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2011, 09:24:52 AM »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2011, 03:14:46 PM »
Again....have you READ the Grand Jury report?

I have now, Satcfi was kind enough to post it above.  Aside from pages 6 and 7, that relate to "Victim #2" I didn't see Joe Paterno's name mentioned in the 23 page report.  Essentially Paterno's involvement is alledged that he was told of an incident in a shower, whereas the details of what was actually told was unclear, and that Paterno met with the Assistant Coach and immediately reported that conversation and the incident to the appropriate source in the PSU Administration.

The rest of the report details activities between Mr. Sandusky and 7 other victims dating back to 1994 up through 2009.  It seems all of these victims were contacted by Mr. Sandusky during his relationship with the 2nd Mile Program and there were several suggestions that inappropriate contacts were initiated by Mr. Sandusky at various facilities at PSU.

There is absolutely no indication or suggestion that Coach Paterno was in any way aware of any of these other inappropriate incidences either at PSU facilities or elsewhere.  Apparently Mr. Sandusky brought several of these victims to PSU football games as a guest, and Victim #4 apparently lived with the Sandusky family for a period of time. 

It seems the report doesn't suggest any additional involvement by, connection with or knowledge of, any of these additional victims or their incidences with Mr. Sandusky by Coach Paterno.  One Victim suggests Sandusky advised he was told by Paterno in 1999 that he would NOT follow him as heach PSC Football Coach which upset Mr. Sandusky.  It also indicated Sandusky was investigated in 1998 by the PA Dept. of Public Welfare about an incident of improper touching.

So unless I missed something, the report hasn't added anything, relative to Coach Paterno, that wasn't included in the discussions on this board.  It does paint a long, repetitive and disgraceful history of contacts Mr. Sandusky had with a string of victims while associated with the 2nd Mile Program, which was separate from his PSU job.

The suggestion that Coach Paterno "should have known" about these activities is nonsense, as the report shows Mr. Sandusky went to great lengths to arrange for very private meetings with is victims over this 15 year period.  It is absurd to presume Mr. Sandusky would have advertised these blatantly illegal activiies in any way to Mr. Paterno, or that Mr. Paterno somehow "knew of" Mr. Sandusky's leanings.  Reading the details of theses illegal contacts it seems Mr. Sandusky was very efficient in keeping his illegal activities from public scrutiny.

The bottom line remains, a subordinate told Coach Paterno of witnessing an inappropriate incident (the details and extent of that discussion remains unknown), Coach Paterno immediately reported the incident to the appropriate administrative contact at PSU, who subsequently met with the witness directly, without Coach Paterno.  3 years prior to this incident, Mr. Sandusky retired from the PSU football team and was given Emeritus status by PSU allowing him to maintain offices on the PSU campus.

If there is an additional "smoking gun" concerning Mr. Paterno in this report, forgive me, I just don't see it. 

Offline TXMike

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2011, 03:19:26 PM »

If there is an additional "smoking gun" concerning Mr. Paterno in this report, forgive me, I just don't see it.

Did you "see" the sun come up this AM?  If you did not will you deny that it DID come up?

APPARENTLY the fan's catcalls ARE correct...you ARE blind.    ;)

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Penn State
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2011, 04:21:09 PM »
The chain of command does not absolve you from reporting a crime.