Federation timing question

[texref]

Guys,

Got this off of a message board:

When New Mexico schools Atrisco Heritage Academy and St. Pius X faced off last weekend, the score of their game mattered. If the Atrisco Heritage Jaguars were to win by 10 or more points, it would secure a playoff berth. If not, it would be out, according to a story from the local ABC station:

With the Jaguars up by 9, St. Pius X was called for a tripping penalty with three seconds remaining, putting Atrisco Heritage in a position to kick a decisive 41-yard field goal.
But the Jags never got to kick the field goal because the clock ran out. According to the rules, the officials should have stopped the clock following the defensive penalty and allowed one more play, but they didn't.

The game was ruled over and the officials left the field with the score 24-15.


With the playoffs starting Friday, Atrisco Heritage is pursuing legal action.

Not being a Federation rules guy (Texas) I was wondering if this was done correctly? Depending on how the play with the foul ended we might be winding the clock as well.

Thanks for your help.

[Curious]

Don't get me involved in any legal battles here; but when ANY ACCEPTED LIVE BALL FOUL (not just a "defensive" foul) occurs during the last timed down of a period, the period must be extended for one more play.  The clock WAS correctly started on the RFP; but, assuming the trip was a live ball foul, the offensive team should have been give one untimed down as part of the 4th quarter.

Refer to: Rule3-3-3; and the exact play is in Case Book play 3.3.3B

[texref]

Here is a link to the tv story:

http://www.koat.com/news/29727811/detail.html

I am not sure if there was three seconds left on the snap of the play where the foul occured or the play following. The play ended with an incomplete pass so I am thinking if there were three seconds left after the play the clock would have started on the snap.

If there were three seconds left afterwards then the foul did not occur during the last timed down in the quarter, correct?

[Curious]

Correct!

Different scenario for sure.  If the play during which the foul occurred ended with a incomplete pass - and there were still 3 seconds left on the clock - the offended team would be able to snap the ball before the expiration of time (assuming the officials didn't start the clock on the ready in error).

So NO untimed down would be applicable.

[WCFB]

They kicked the call... The quarter should be extended un-timed down if the RFP started the clock and time ran out. The WH should explain the extended quarter.

LMAO the parents take it to court. 

Officials blow calls all the time... if they only  knew how many mistakes go unnoticed at the high school level. Now i do feel sorry for the kids but this is life. Who wants to bet the WH will never do that again.

This is why we read the case book plays not just the rule book. 

[AlUpstateNY]

Correct!

Different scenario for sure.  If the play during which the foul occurred ended with a incomplete pass - and there were still 3 seconds left on the clock - the offended team would be able to snap the ball before the expiration of time (assuming the officials didn't start the clock on the ready in error).

So NO untimed down would be applicable.

I think you're missing something.  If the (live ball) foul happened during the down in which a pass was incomplete, as suggested the following down should have started with the snap.  If it was not an incomplete pass, the clock would start on the subsequent RFP.  If the clock then expired before the next snap (which is necessary to start a down), then the play in which the penalty happened was, in fact, the last timed down of the period, and there should have been an untimed down.

[Curious]

I think you're missing something.  If the (live ball) foul happened during the down in which a pass was incomplete, as suggested the following down should have started with the snap.  If it was not an incomplete pass, the clock would start on the subsequent RFP.  If the clock then expired before the next snap (which is necessary to start a down), then the play in which the penalty happened was, in fact, the last timed down of the period, and there should have been an untimed down.

Typical!

I already said this in my first response....before texref indicated there may have been an incomplete pass leaving 3 seconds on the clock.

PAY ATTENTION!

[FBUmp]

Correct!

Different scenario for sure.  If the play during which the foul occurred ended with a incomplete pass - and there were still 3 seconds left on the clock - the offended team would be able to snap the ball before the expiration of time (assuming the officials didn't start the clock on the ready in error).

So NO untimed down would be applicable.

Incorrect.  An untimed down should have been played.

Down is played, flag is thrown, three seconds are left.  Assess penalty and wind clock if it starts on the ready by rule.  Time expires.  The down with the penalty is now the last play of the period, so an untimed down is necessary.

This is different than the NCAA rule where, I believe, the clock has to expire during the play.

[AlUpstateNY]

Typical!

I already said this in my first response....before texref indicated there may have been an incomplete pass leaving 3 seconds on the clock. PAY ATTENTION!

Take a pill and relax, Curious, you're going to give yourself a stroke.  Just maybe your explanation(s) weren't received as clear as you believe they were sent and intended.  There's never any harm in repeating a correct answer.  I didn't think anyone is keeping track, or keeping score, of correct answers.

[Curious]

Incorrect.  An untimed down should have been played.

Down is played, flag is thrown, three seconds are left.  Assess penalty and wind clock if it starts on the ready by rule.  Time expires.  The down with the penalty is now the last play of the period, so an untimed down is necessary.

This is different than the NCAA rule where, I believe, the clock has to expire during the play.

FB, the OP indicated the clock was stopped for a live ball foul with 3 seconds left (no incomplete pass); and I acknowledged, in my first response that, after winding the clock, and time ran out, an untimed down should be given.  BUT, a few posts later, texref changed the play to an incomplete pass with three seconds remaining.  THAT is when I stated, with a clock stopped for the incomplete pass (with three seconds remaining), no untimed down would be appropriate as the offense would be able to next snap the ball in the 4th period.

Did I mis-state something? 

[Jason Kramer]

A similar play is in the case book:

"Near the end of the third period, it is third and 4 for A from B’s 48-yard-line. A1 advances to B’s 45 and during the run there is holding by B1. The penalty is accepted. At the end of the down, there are three seconds remaining in the period. Because the penalty was the only reason the for the clock to be stopped, it is started with the ready-for-play signal and the period ends before A snaps the ball.

RULING: A is entitled to an untimed down because it accepted the penalty for a foul which occurred during the last timed down of the period. Therefore, the period must be extended with an untimed down in this situation even though time remained and A had a chance to snap the ball before it expired."

[FBUmp]

Okay, I don't know who changed the play, who's talking about the original play or who is right or wrong.

What I do know is there should have been one more play in this game.    The fact that time did not expire during the last down is of no consequence.  If the live ball foul occurs during the last down of a period and it's not a loss of down penalty or a safety, then we have to play one more down.

[Curious]

Okay, I don't know who changed the play, who's talking about the original play or who is right or wrong.

What I do know is there should have been one more play in this game.    The fact that time did not expire during the last down is of no consequence.  If the live ball foul occurs during the last down of a period and it's not a loss of down penalty or a safety, then we have to play one more down.

I couldn't agree with you more. 

All I'm trying to say is if we DO have a play where there is an incomplete pass during which there is a live ball foul, and there are three seconds left in the game following the enforcement, there will be time for a subsequent snap.  This would be the last timed down, so if THAT down is free from an accepted live ball foul, the game would be over.  Wouldn't you agree?

[Roscoe]

Okay, I don't know who changed the play, who's talking about the original play or who is right or wrong.

What I do know is there should have been one more play in this game.    The fact that time did not expire during the last down is of no consequence.  If the live ball foul occurs during the last down of a period and it's not a loss of down penalty or a safety, then we have to play one more down.

Absolutely correct. But I want to see a video of the last 20 seconds of the game. I have a gut feeling the WH wound the clock on the RFP with 3 seconds left. And shame on the clock operator for running the clock after an incomplete pass. It was a live ball foul, there was an incomplete pass, clock should have 3 seconds left for a final play. One thing I do no agree with is Atrisco Heritage Academy filing an injunction to enter the playoffs. There is no way to be sure he would have made that field goal.

[wvwhitehat603]

Where is the BJ in this scenario? In WV he is responsible for timing. He and the rest of the crew should have caught this if there was a mistake made. You guys are correct, there should have been an untimed down in this scenario. I am glad in my crew that we all know the status of the clock and the timing rules.

[wingnut]

Here is a link to the tv story:

http://www.koat.com/news/29727811/detail.html

I am not sure if there was three seconds left on the snap of the play where the foul occured or the play following. The play ended with an incomplete pass so I am thinking if there were three seconds left after the play the clock would have started on the snap.

If there were three seconds left afterwards then the foul did not occur during the last timed down in the quarter, correct?

Rules difference:

NCAA:  3-2-3a...A period shall be extended for an untimed down if a penalty is accepted for a live ball foul during a down in which time expires.  In this case, with 3 seconds left after penalty enforcement, the foul occurred during the previous down--not the down in which time expired. 

NFHS:  3-3-3...A period must be extended by an untimed down because a foul occurred during the last timed down of the period and the penalty is accepted.  Because the ball had not been snapped before time expired--thus starting a new down--the foul occurred "during the last timed down".  (Never made sense to me, either.)

Maybe the R works both rules codes. 

[Wingman]

Yeah, maybe the "R" used to work both NCAA and NFHS and just plain forgot. I'm inclinded to believe he didn't know. Personally, I don't like the rule, but can live with it.

How about a what would you do mechanics wise on this play. While I've had plenty of untimed downs because time did expire during a play with a foul..  never had one expired such as in this scenario.

So, assuming you and the crew know that team-A doesn't really have to snap the ball, would you
consider positioning the Umpire over the ball preventing the snap and start the clock?
Lets also assume the darn scoreboard horn then goes off.. and team-B starts leaving thinking they just won.
Would you now usher team-B back on the field, line them all up and give the whoppie-doo (S1*) and RFP signals.

or before you wind the clock..  boggie on over to team-B coach (and team-A coach) to let them both know that the clock is going expire BUT team-A will be allowed to snap the ball.

Last thing I'd want to do is cause any further confusion or delay in getting this final play off. Just asking

[wingnut]

Yeah, maybe the "R" used to work both NCAA and NFHS and just plain forgot. I'm inclinded to believe he didn't know. Personally, I don't like the rule, but can live with it.

How about a what would you do mechanics wise on this play. While I've had plenty of untimed downs because time did expire during a play with a foul..  never had one expired such as in this scenario.

So, assuming you and the crew know that team-A doesn't really have to snap the ball, would you
consider positioning the Umpire over the ball preventing the snap and start the clock?
Lets also assume the darn scoreboard horn then goes off.. and team-B starts leaving thinking they just won.
Would you now usher team-B back on the field, line them all up and give the whoppie-doo (S1*) and RFP signals.

or before you wind the clock..  boggie on over to team-B coach (and team-A coach) to let them both know that the clock is going expire BUT team-A will be allowed to snap the ball.

Last thing I'd want to do is cause any further confusion or delay in getting this final play off. Just asking

I have had to extend a period many times due to a foul during the last timed down, although it has never resulted in litigation. 

Just communicate with the sidelines that the clock will start on the RFP.  They'll probably get the play off.  Otherwise, it's an untimed down.  It's not difficult.

[AlUpstateNY]

This type situation is clearly not routine, and more than likely not everyone understands the details of what will happen to the extent they should, so spending a little more time with the explanation seems reasonable.

I would recommend spending that extra time with BOTH captains, as both teams are affected and making sure BOTH captains understood that the clock would start on the ready and if time expired before the play got off, there would be an untimed down.  I would try and convey that information to the captains so their coaches would understand as well.