drop kick on kickoff

[bulldogs1msu]

Team is using drop kick for free kick.  Team wants to do an onside kick.  Does the ball have to touch the ground again before kicking team can recover

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Though it's not explicitly stated anywhere, that would be the only thing that makes sense. Until the ball is in flight following contact with the kicker's foot, it's not (by definition) a kick. So until the kick is in flight it can't be considered to have touched the ground.

[Ump33]

I think you can apply 6-3-1a, even though it is about field goals. Since a drop kick can be used for a field goal, it is only good if it does not touch the ground. If a drop kick touches the ground, it is a touchback per 6-3-1a. 

If you apply to Free Kicks ... The touching of the ground prior to the kick does not apply to the kicked ball touching the ground. 

6-3-1a … It is a touchback if any free kick or scrimmage kick: which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point field goal attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line, unless R chooses a spot of first touching by K.

[Bob M.]

I think you can apply 6-3-1a, even though it is about field goals. Since a drop kick can be used for a field goal, it is only good if it does not touch the ground. If a drop kick touches the ground, it is a touch back per 6-3-1a. 

REPLY: I like that reasoning even better! 

[Ump33]

REPLY: I like that reasoning even better! 

Thanks ... I was concerned my thought process might be confusing.

[blandis]

Another way to look at this is that all kicks, except for punts, must be controlled from the ground. If you use a tee, the kick is controlled on the ground. If you use a place kick, the kick is controlled from the ground. If you use a drop kick, the kick is controlled from the ground (watch a Rugby Union or Sevens game if you have never seen a drop kick). Going back to its rugby roots, the football kicking game used to only use drop kicks until the place kick and tee came into the game but the other kicking rules have remained the same. For an onside kick in football to be legally touched it must be touched by R or go ten yards and be grounded AFTER the kick. When a drop kick is used it hits the ground, is then kicked, and then must meet the criteria for K to legally touch it the same as if it's used on a tee or a place kick, or a punt after a Safety. 

[FrankNFHS]

Similarly as someone brought up the idea of using a tee...

May a kickoff be done without a tee?  I believe the rules state that a tee may be used but it does not state it is required.

We have a kicker that can kick a crazy, spinning. bouncing ball by the way he kicks the ball that is on the ground.  When we lined up for a kickoff, the kicker put the ball down on the ground and the other coach asked for clarification if a tee was needed.  One of the crew had his rule book and we could not see that it was required so we allowed the play and everyone seem to agree a tee was allowed but not required.

BUT...we want to make sure we get this right because we expect to see this kicker again. 

[Atlanta Blue]

Similarly as someone brought up the idea of using a tee...

May a kickoff be done without a tee?  I believe the rules state that a tee may be used but it does not state it is required.

We have a kicker that can kick a crazy, spinning. bouncing ball by the way he kicks the ball that is on the ground.  When we lined up for a kickoff, the kicker put the ball down on the ground and the other coach asked for clarification if a tee was needed.  One of the crew had his rule book and we could not see that it was required so we allowed the play and everyone seem to agree a tee was allowed but not required.

BUT...we want to make sure we get this right because we expect to see this kicker again.

You got it right, a tee is NOT required.  Nor is it required that the ball be upright on the tee.  We had a kick where the ball was placed sideways on the tee (long axis parallel to the ground).  That also created a spinning, hard to handle kick.

[blandis]

   A kickoff cannot be kicked with the ball laying on the ground without support of a tee. Laying the ball next to it without the ball touching the tee and then kicking it is an illegal kick.
   In absence of a tee on a regular free kick a player may drop kick or place kick (where a holder places the ball on the ground/tee and holds it still for the kicker). After a safety team K may also punt. These are the only types of kicks that are legal on a free kick. A ball at rest or rolling on the ground is uncontrolled and when it is kicked is an illegal kick. 
   On scrimmage kicks team K may punt, place kick, or drop kick at anytime behind their LOS. If the ball is uncontrolled in none of these controlled manners it is an illegal kick.

[Rulesman]

   A kickoff cannot be kicked with the ball laying on the ground without support of a tee...

Rules 2-24-5 and 2-24-7 (particularly the first sentence in 2-24-7) do not support this statement. As I said in another post on another topic, the definitions found in Rule 2 are the foundation for all of the other rules.

[Atlanta Blue]

   A kickoff cannot be kicked with the ball laying on the ground without support of a tee. Laying the ball next to it without the ball touching the tee and then kicking it is an illegal kick.

2-24-7: A place kick is a legal kick made while the ball is in a fixed position
on the ground or on a kicking tee.

It is perfectly legal to lay the ball on the ground, and then kick it, provided it is stationary.  You can't roll it and kick it while it's moving, but you may place it on the ground in a "fixed position" (not moving) and kick away.  A tee is not required, note the word "OR" in the rule.

[HLinNC]

Why would someone resurrect a 7 month old topic to get it wrong? At 3:40 in the morning?

[FBUmp]

   A kickoff cannot be kicked with the ball laying on the ground without support of a tee. Laying the ball next to it without the ball touching the tee and then kicking it is an illegal kick.

You couldn't be more wrong.

[waltjp]

Why would someone resurrect a 7 month old topic to get it wrong? At 3:40 in the morning?

I suppose if the poster was in California, for instance, it would have been 12:40 local time.

[blandis]

Gentlemen, thank you for insisting I was incorrect. This is a vague aspect of the rule, the definition of a place kick, that in today's game you just don't see. Keep in mind, I, like many of you, use this as a way to find out the nitty gritty details. Being wrong means you get to find out what is correct. After doing some research outside of the NFHS rules book I was able to define a "place kick" which really is at the root of this argument. For a place kick to be legal the ball must be placed in a fixed position. It doesn't say who has to place the ball, just it is in a fixed position. This can be done for both free kicks and scrimmage kicks.
   With the football being in the elongated form that it is today as opposed to 100 years ago we simply just don't see the ball being layer flat very much, if at all, anymore. That is what made me think a place kick had to be what I said "controlled." The key word should be "fixed."
   A free kick can be a place kick from a fixed position being on the ground without a tee, on the ground leaning against a tee, on the legal tee itself, held in place by a teammate either on the ground or on a tee,  a drop kick, or a punt after a safety.
   A scrimmage kick can be a place kick where the ball is in a "fixed" position on the ground with or without a teammate holding it in place on the ground or on a legal tee, a drop kick, or a punt.
    Furthermore, this topic is not just 7 months old, it's timeless as officials are always looking to learn the intricacies of the game and as new officials come in end even to correct the incorrect things I was taught. Also, I do live California so when the Tonight Show is over I might check out a blog on here.
   Again, thanks.