Author Topic: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?  (Read 24701 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 04:54:15 PM »
There's no "head scratch" smiley.

Offline mccormicw

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 05:27:20 PM »
Why do we call this and not the quick look to the sideline many offenses do in an obvious attempt to draw the defense offsides? 

Offline clearwall

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2011, 08:12:43 AM »
ummmm...no?

Seems like one of those rare situations where the common taters are correct and the officials are wrong. They all moved LATERALLY which I cant see how you can definitively conclude was "an OBVIOUS attempt to cause...a false start". I think you could easily argue that movement was an attempt to get a better matchup for a block
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 08:24:15 AM by clearwall »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2011, 09:29:59 AM »
ummmm...no?

Seems like one of those rare situations where the common taters are correct and the officials are wrong. They all moved LATERALLY which I cant see how you can definitively conclude was "an OBVIOUS attempt to cause...a false start". I think you could easily argue that movement was an attempt to get a better matchup for a block

DoG is what was correctly called.

Rule 7 / Snapping and Passing the Ball FR-71
4. Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of
scrimmage may not make quick or abrupt actions that are not part of
normal defensive player movement (A.R. 7-1-5-IV).
PENALTY [1-5]—Dead-ball foul. Five yards from the succeeding spot [S18
or S21].

Best regards,

Brad
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:32:25 AM by TxSkyBolt »

Offline TxBJ

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"Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2011, 10:23:16 AM »
I agree, Brad. Once they start rolling and jumping over each other it is no longer normal player movement.

What about Team A's jerseys?  Mainly white with dark sleeves.  Illegal?

Offline clearwall

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2011, 11:38:40 AM »
Did the part about "...in an obvious attempt to cause an offensive player to foul(false start)" get removed last year? I'm reading a 2010 version of the rulebook and may be out of date. If not, I dont see how you can say this movement was obviously designed to cause a false start. What do you do when players run from the defensive backfield and stop hard at the line when feigning a blitz? I dont see how this is different.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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"Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »
Clear, where do you keep getting that this is trying to cause a FS. It's DoG by rule. Push the "I believe" button. :)


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Offline clearwall

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 02:27:50 PM »
Im looking at rule 7-1-5-a-4. That's why Im asking, does the current rule still read with what I last posted? Im looking at a 2010 rulebook because I dont have my 2011 with me at the moment. If that last part of the rule is in there, how is this DOG? They're not doing it to intentionally cause a FS, imo.

Also, AR 7-1-5 IV is more along the lines of what I thought this rule was trying to prohibit. B56 is stationary behind the LOS and before the snap feints TOWARDS THE LOS in an obvious attempt to cause a false start(verbatim). Penalty- DB DoG.

My comment is that in my opinion, sliding horizontally across the formation does not meet the requirement "to obviously cause FS".
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 02:33:30 PM by clearwall »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 02:45:14 PM »
Yes, the removed that language.  What I posted is taken from the current code.

Best regards,

Brad

PS You might want to download a free PDF of the rule book.  I have one on each of the computers I use.  Makes it easy to word search.


Best regards,

Brad

Offline clearwall

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 02:49:33 PM »
Ok thanks. I left my rulebook at work and i was using an iCrap app that doesnt have the current one up-to-date.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 02:55:20 PM »
I downloaded that too and promptly deleted it when I saw it was 2010. 

Offline fencewire

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2011, 03:13:54 PM »
hit the PDF version online while on your Iphone or Ipad, it should give you the option to download into iBooks as a pdf, will also work on a droid.

here is a link

http://www.ncaapublications.com/DownloadPublication.aspx?download=FR12.pdf

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2011, 03:45:42 PM »
Just did it!  Very cool, thanks for the tip.

Brad

Offline mccormicw

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2011, 04:01:24 PM »
I don't understand why the rule states "Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of scrimmage may not make quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive player movement (A.R. 7-1-5-IV)" if it is not because it may cause a false start.  Why would anyone care?  What makes a movement not part of a normal defensive player movement?  If a team has determined that the monkey roll thing is the fastest way to switch positions and does it in every situation where they want to switch positions, does it then become normal or does every team have to do something for it to become normal.  More importantly, why does the AR specified in the rule mention false start if false starts are relevant?  AR Below:


Linebacker B56 is stationary within one yard beyond the neutral zone.
As the offense is calling its snap signals, B56 feints toward the line in an
obvious attempt to induce a false start by the offense. RULING: Deadball
foul, delay of game. Five-yard penalty at the succeeding spot.

Offline carrollyp1

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2011, 05:48:15 PM »
The defense didn't change personnel and the change of position is not a delay of game. There was no advantage to the defense to change positions. They didn't move until the player went in motion, which changed the strength of the formation. No movement was forward toward the LOS. Defenses can change positions any time just like an offense can put a man in motion. The DOG was makeup for a bad flag.

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2011, 07:16:00 PM »
This is NOT normal defensive movement but is a quick and abrupt action that is designed to draw Team A into a false start.  This is no different than disconcerting signals and is penalized as DOG.  Good flag.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »
Flag for general stupidity.

El Macman

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 07:51:15 PM »
Analagous to the old saying, "Say, you ain't from around here, are ya?" I.e., say, you ain't been doin' this long, have ya?
Some years ago, but not all that long - probably 12-15 years - defensive linemen and linebakckers were deliberately abruptly jumping up, sideways, forward (but not into the NZ), flailing arms - making all kinds of movements intended to get team A to false start. Thus, this delay of game foul for making abrupt movements that were not a part of a normal player movement. What is normal? What is pornography? Horizontal leap frogging hasn't been seen in these parts, to my recollection of 4/10 of a century. Can't say I've ever seen it on a football field. Hardly 'normal.'   


I don't understand why the rule states "Player(s) aligned in a stationary position within one yard of the line of scrimmage may not make quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive player movement (A.R. 7-1-5-IV)" if it is not because it may cause a false start.  Why would anyone care?  What makes a movement not part of a normal defensive player movement?  If a team has determined that the monkey roll thing is the fastest way to switch positions and does it in every situation where they want to switch positions, does it then become normal or does every team have to do something for it to become normal.  More importantly, why does the AR specified in the rule mention false start if false starts are relevant?  AR Below:


Linebacker B56 is stationary within one yard beyond the neutral zone.
As the offense is calling its snap signals, B56 feints toward the line in an
obvious attempt to induce a false start by the offense. RULING: Deadball
foul, delay of game. Five-yard penalty at the succeeding spot.

chymechowder

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2011, 08:28:00 PM »
What is pornography? Horizontal leap frogging hasn't been seen in these parts, to my recollection of 4/10 of a century.

pretty sure there are porn sites devoted entirely to the ol' horizontal leap frog move.  ;D

Offline carrollyp1

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2011, 09:45:57 PM »
But do we really make that call when the score is 38-14. It was fourth down and 17 with team A about to punt. Is that over offciating or not really having the feel for the game? Is that the intent, to call maybe some consider a ticky tack foul? Someone out there convince me Im barking up the wrong tree?

Offline TXMike

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2011, 10:18:16 PM »
This makes a mockery of the game and flagging should (hopefully) send a message to the genius coach who dreamed it up and then who decided this was a good time to use his little tool.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2011, 10:31:06 PM »
It's better to flag this in the 38 - 14 game, and teach them the rule, than it is to ignore it and then that team has it flagged in a championship game that "costs" them the game.  We'd here the ole, "we've been doing that all year long and you are the first crew to flag that."  I can assure you that the coaches would much rather have us "nit pick" that early than to wait till the game is on the line to flag it.

El Macman

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Re: "Quick or abrupt actions that are not part of normal defensive movement" ?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 06:10:37 AM »
Who are "we?"
Who considers it "ticky tack?"

We don't have to convince you of anything. You can listen to the voices of knowledge and experience, or you can be stubborn. Your choice. No skin off our noses. Sadly, like so many before you, you sound like you've fallen into the trap of worrying or caring about how making this call will make you look to...somebody... not sure who...coaches, I guess. That's too bad.
 

But do we really make that call when the score is 38-14. It was fourth down and 17 with team A about to punt. Is that over offciating or not really having the feel for the game? Is that the intent, to call maybe some consider a ticky tack foul? Someone out there convince me Im barking up the wrong tree?