Southlake-Skyline

[carrollyp1]

What is sad is that three officials on that sideline and not one saw two blockers block before the ball crosses the 50 and even miss the holding by one. It is clear that this crew did a last minute 7 man mechnics review before the game to do this game. When they knew that there was a onside kick about to happen, each one should have communicated with each other to what each's responsibilities was. If coaches want 7 man mechanics in playoffs, then there needs to be 7 man mechanics used during the regular season. The coaches put this on themselves by requesting a seven man crew.

[Hank]

What about this aspect of the game...

A 7 man crew may not have been a good idea.  Coaches ask for a 7 man crew because they think it could improve the officiating.  But we may not be adequately prepared to officiate as a 7 man crew.  I've worked over 200 varsity games.  I've not worked one 7man game.  I was trained in 7 man.  The session lasted about an hour and was a few years ago.  Would I feel comfortable calling a 7 man game?  Not likely.  Would I turn it back?  Again, not likely.  It's a late playoff game that anyone would want to call.

Is the move to 7 man a good one if it's only made in the playoffs?

The other teams don't change their plays in the playoffs (well, most don't).  Why should we?

[TXMike]

Come on man!!! They missed this BECAUSE they had a 7 man crew ? !?  !  ?    I hate to be a cynic but I am afraid they would have missed it with a 5 man crew.   Let's don't be using this to argue AGAINST 7 man crews.  Use it to argue for trained and experienced 7 man crews meaning we use more of them in reg season 

[BP1911]

Looks like they were doing 8-man NFL Mechanics with a FOX also!   



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[fencewire]

Better on the field than in the henhouse.....

And on the picture I posted, I don't claim to know where the ball was at that exact moment in time, just that there was someone extremely out of position, and perhaps turned a 7 man crew into a 6 man one.

[Hank]

Come on man!!! They missed this BECAUSE they had a 7 man crew ? !?  !  ?    I hate to be a cynic but I am afraid they would have missed it with a 5 man crew.   Let's don't be using this to argue AGAINST 7 man crews.  Use it to argue for trained and experienced 7 man crews meaning we use more of them in reg season

Well, think about it a minute.  The HL is out of position and NOT on the line to determine if the ball is legally touched.  The SJ does NOT have a clear view.  So, the 2 officials closest to the call, can't make it.  Were this a 5 man crew, the HL would have a good look at it.  Maybe just maybe he gets it right.

As for more 7man crews in reg season.  If this happens, 7man crews in playoffs make sense.  But will it happen?  The schools want to reduce their expenses where possible.  7 man requires paying 2 more.  It's either more expensive, or you reduce the payments.  I don't do this to make a LOT of money but at some point it makes no sense.  If I make less than minimum wage, I might quit.  Had an out of town playoff game this year where after you figure in travel time, we made about $10/hour.  If it had been a 7 man crew, that gets REAL close to minimum wage.

Besides, I thought the idea of this forum was to think about how to better our officiating, not advocate for more officials on the field.

[TXMike]

The "crew" got the touching part right.  The part they missed was the illegal block and they had plenty of eyes available to get that.  Taling 4 away is not going to help the other 6 get it.

Putting 7 on the field will improve our officiating, if done properly.  So advocating for more guys on the field is the same as advocating for improved officiating IMHO. 

[clearwall]

As for more 7man crews in reg season.  If this happens, 7man crews in playoffs make sense.  But will it happen?  The schools want to reduce their expenses where possible.  7 man requires paying 2 more.  It's either more expensive, or you reduce the payments.  I don't do this to make a LOT of money but at some point it makes no sense.  If I make less than minimum wage, I might quit.  Had an out of town playoff game this year where after you figure in travel time, we made about $10/hour. 

As the son, brother and spouse of multiple teachers, i can say unequivocally that if school districts WANTED to save serious cash, there are plenty of areas that dont involve the sports officiating budget. There are schools here in San Antonio talking about spending millions of dollars to give all the kids freaking iPads. Both my parents have gotten brand new electronics that they never asked for just because the district had to spend $X or else next year, their budget would get cut. Ive heard firsthand stories of teachers getting thousand dollar laptops just to check email and do power point. Next to Medicaid, the Tx education system probably has the most waste of any govt agency.

[Hank]

I agree with you about getting the touching right and missing the blocking.  I'm not quite sure how those blocks were missed.  I saw it the first time I watched the video where you can't even see the ball.  I know it happens Amazingly fast, but you've got to be ready for that in that instance.

As for the 7man crews, but for the cost, I agree with you.  7 man crews "should" be better, but I don't know that they were in this instance.  Maybe at other points in the game, the 7 man crew made things better, but here, where it's VERY important, it's a detriment.  I still don't think the cost issue can just be ignored.  Using 7 man crews during the regular season would improve officiating but I don't think the schools are willing to go there.  Is there a compromise?  If 7 man crews are only used on certain games, then are those officials deemed better than their colleagues?  Since they have 7 man experience, do they automatically get the playoff games?  I don't know about yours, but we've already got plenty of "superstars" in our chapter.  They already dominate the playoffs.  So, change all crews to 7 man?  Some chapters would have trouble covering the games.  And some crews would have a heck of a time filling the other spots with qualified (in the coaches mind at least) and available officials.

[houstonjaguar]

As the son, brother and spouse of multiple teachers, i can say unequivocally that if school districts WANTED to save serious cash, there are plenty of areas that dont involve the sports officiating budget. There are schools here in San Antonio talking about spending millions of dollars to give all the kids freaking iPads. Both my parents have gotten brand new electronics that they never asked for just because the district had to spend $X or else next year, their budget would get cut. Ive heard firsthand stories of teachers getting thousand dollar laptops just to check email and do power point. Next to Medicaid, the Tx education system probably has the most waste of any govt agency.

If the iPads hold all the students' books and worksheets, it would be cheaper than issuing out books every year (and NEW editions every other year).  eBooks are cheaper, and even now my SR in HS has to print out her own math homework worksheets at home (or pay $/sheet at school).

[clearwall]

If the iPads hold all the students' books and worksheets, it would be cheaper than issuing out books every year (and NEW editions every other year).  eBooks are cheaper, and even now my SR in HS has to print out her own math homework worksheets at home (or pay $/sheet at school).

Im not complaining about using the technology. Im an IT guy, so yeah, I agree something like that can be cheaper and more efficient, but you dont need brand new $500 ipads to do it. Get a stripped down $200 laptop that will serve all the same basic functions. And it's not just the ipads, that was just an example of some serious waste.

[cwag]

I worked on the chain crew so I have a little perspective on this.

The crew discussed on-side kick during halftime.  Half of the crew members are on the same LSC crew, so they have 7 man experience.  It's clear to me that both H and S were watching the ball, where H should have been watching the blocks.  I was watching the blocking and at real time standing at the B40 I did not see anything I would have called.  Replay proves otherwise.

If you want to talk about costs, consider this.  Both schools are clients of the Dallas chapter, so why did they decide to go with Austin officials or put it in UIL hands to assign.  My estimate of crowd was 17-18k and should make for a nice check.

About the onside kick...consider it using replay in an NCAA game.

"Ruling on the field is the kick was recovered by the kicking team.  The play is under further review."
Now hum the Jeapordy theme for a minute.
"After further review, the play on the field stands as called."

Do any of you disagree with this?

[clearwall]

You think costs are high with 2 more officials, imagine getting all that camera equipment, operators, and paying a replay official. No way man

[BankerRef]

About the onside kick...consider it using replay in an NCAA game.

"Ruling on the field is the kick was recovered by the kicking team.  The play is under further review."
Now hum the Jeapordy theme for a minute.
"After further review, the play on the field stands as called."

Do any of you disagree with this?

If the replay has the right angle it could very well come back "confirmed".  Too bad the replay can't throw the flag for the blocks.

[psv]

/double facepalm.....


http://www.wfaa.com/sports/high-school/Southlake-Carroll-Skyline-game-over-but-complaints-are-not-135624083.html

ugh.

[beaye1]

The video on this link clearly shows the call was correct on when 1st touched.  Someone just cleared this matter...freeze it at :23 seconds.

[TXMike]

I think the only people who are still arguing for illegal touch are some of the Skyline fans (and not even all of them) and a crazed local politician there.  But that is fine, let them gripe abiout something we got right and maybe they will not even pick up on what we did not

[beaye1]

I also noticed that there are no comments from Coach Samples anywhere.  I wish some of those folks complaining would go to him and ask him what he has seen from the film.

[Etref]

The local Fox station in Dallas interviewed a retired official (38 years HS and college and a darn good official) and viewed the film with him. He pointed out the legal touching, the illegal blocking and the fact the mechanics were wrong for the official to move in front of another official.


It was a good interview and the official was not pointing fingers or anything, just explaining what occurred.

[JasonTX]

The local Fox station in Dallas interviewed a retired official (38 years HS and college and a darn good official) and viewed the film with him. He pointed out the legal touching, the illegal blocking and the fact the mechanics were wrong for the official to move in front of another official.


It was a good interview and the official was not pointing fingers or anything, just explaining what occurred.

I would have also pointed out the other 100 reasons they lost the game.  Dropped passes, missed blocks, missed tackles, bad play calling, etc.  Those are the real reason they lost.  Blaming the officials for their own shortcomings is a HACK poor job from people we expect to be educators.

[20years]

The job of a football official is to make the right calls.  I reviewed this video many times and sent it out to other officials around the US to review.   I have been calling football for 22 years.  I've worked Two Texas Semi 5A State Final, One 4A Texas State Championship Game and over 30 play games.  I am currently working D1 Football.  Some of you might be asking what is your point.  My point,  if this site is for football officials to learn.  I suggest we learn from this mis-take, because you will face such a play if you continue to call football at any level.  It matters not if you have 5 or 7 man in a crew.  The bottom line" THE CREW DID NOT MAKE THE RIGHT CALL".  The Mechanics/rules are the key to the success of any football official.  We are the governing body on the field for the 3 Hours.   This requires year around working on mechanics/rules and physical condition.  There is no excuse for missing the illegal touching and blocking before the ball travels 10 years.  The good officials will expect the ball not to go 10 yards.  The good officials will expect blocking before the ball go's 10 yards.  The good officials will expect an onside kick at anytime  during a free kick.  There are over a 1000 football official in the State of Texas that would have loved to work  that game.  So, you must have your "A GAME" when you are working any football game at any level.  However, this was a big GAME and requires your "AA+ GAME".   Some said they think the call was correct.  I suggest you review the video and read the CCA Football Officiating Manual (Chapter 7 page 308).  I also suggest that you review the Rule 6 of the 2011-2012 NCAA Manual.   As football officials we interpret the rules and apply them to the game.

[TXMike]

All you have said about your experience may be true.  But honestly, the number of state championship games or playoff games you have worked mean SQUAT in Texas.  If you really are an official in Texas you know why I say that. So I wonder if you truly are.   Furthermore, I wonder about your true experience and abilities if you make a statement like "The crew did not make the right call"  A truly experienced official knows there are MULTIPLE calls that have to be made on EVERY play by one or more members of the crew.  You sound more like a fan than an official.  If you read through the threads we have on this play (or on most any other thread on the board) you would see that most everyone here agrees there were good AND bad things that happened on this play.  So far, of all the things the crew had to deal with on that one play, I think we have only found one part of it they did wrong (the missed illegal blocks).  But if we break it down we will see there were many things they ruled correctly on on the play, the most significant of which was the legality of the touching by A. 

PS   A CCA Manual that has 308 pages?   Hoss you gonna have to show me that!  And the "2011-12 NCAA Football Manual"  WTF is that?   I have a 2011-12 NCAA Football RULEBOOK but not a MANUAL.

[TexLJ]

The job of a football official is to make the right calls.  I reviewed this video many times and sent it out to other officials around the US to review.   I have been calling football for 22 years.  I've worked Two Texas Semi 5A State Final, One 4A Texas State Championship Game and over 30 play games.  I am currently working D1 Football.  Some of you might be asking what is your point.  My point,  if this site is for football officials to learn.  I suggest we learn from this mis-take, because you will face such a play if you continue to call football at any level.  It matters not if you have 5 or 7 man in a crew.  The bottom line" THE CREW DID NOT MAKE THE RIGHT CALL".  The Mechanics/rules are the key to the success of any football official.  We are the governing body on the field for the 3 Hours.   This requires year around working on mechanics/rules and physical condition.  There is no excuse for missing the illegal touching and blocking before the ball travels 10 years.  The good officials will expect the ball not to go 10 yards.  The good officials will expect blocking before the ball go's 10 yards.  The good officials will expect an onside kick at anytime  during a free kick.  There are over a 1000 football official in the State of Texas that would have loved to work  that game.  So, you must have your "A GAME" when you are working any football game at any level.  However, this was a big GAME and requires your "AA+ GAME".   Some said they think the call was correct.  I suggest you review the video and read the CCA Football Officiating Manual (Chapter 7 page 308).  I also suggest that you review the Rule 6 of the 2011-2012 NCAA Manual.   As football officials we interpret the rules and apply them to the game.

I'm completely baffled by this comment, unless you are a Skyline fan posing as an official.  After watching the video numerous times, I cannot see how anyone, especially with 22 years experience, can say that there is illegal touching.  The ball broke the plane of the 50 in the air before it was touched by Team A.  Furthermore, it seems clear that the majority on this board believe that some of the blocking was illegal and missed by the crew.  So, I do think we are all trying to learn from this situation.

I may be mistaken here, but the CCA Football Officiating Manual is not relevant here.  The TASO 7-man mechanics manual would be the guide.  They may be identical, I don't work 7-man so I don't know, but the TASO manual would be the guide.

[JasonTX]

The job of a football official is to make the right calls.  I reviewed this video many times and sent it out to other officials around the US to review.   I have been calling football for 22 years.  I've worked Two Texas Semi 5A State Final, One 4A Texas State Championship Game and over 30 play games.  I am currently working D1 Football.  Some of you might be asking what is your point.  My point,  if this site is for football officials to learn.  I suggest we learn from this mis-take, because you will face such a play if you continue to call football at any level.  It matters not if you have 5 or 7 man in a crew.  The bottom line" THE CREW DID NOT MAKE THE RIGHT CALL".  The Mechanics/rules are the key to the success of any football official.  We are the governing body on the field for the 3 Hours.   This requires year around working on mechanics/rules and physical condition.  There is no excuse for missing the illegal touching and blocking before the ball travels 10 years.  The good officials will expect the ball not to go 10 yards.  The good officials will expect blocking before the ball go's 10 yards.  The good officials will expect an onside kick at anytime  during a free kick.  There are over a 1000 football official in the State of Texas that would have loved to work  that game.  So, you must have your "A GAME" when you are working any football game at any level.  However, this was a big GAME and requires your "AA+ GAME".   Some said they think the call was correct.  I suggest you review the video and read the CCA Football Officiating Manual (Chapter 7 page 308).  I also suggest that you review the Rule 6 of the 2011-2012 NCAA Manual.   As football officials we interpret the rules and apply them to the game.

The ball WAS NOT illegally touched.  Take a look a the video from the news story posted in this thread.  That is the best view to show it was beyond the 50.  I think everyone else here agrees that the blocking is illegal.  I disagree with your statement about "good officials expecting..." .  Good officials don't anticipate or expect.  Good officials react.  No matter how good or how long an official has been officiating, onside kicks is not something we see very often.  I officiate college as well and we discuss this every game, but I can only recall 2 games this year where we were in short kick mechanics.  Repetition is what makes any official better and onside kick mechanics is not a situation where we are going to get much repetition.  At the high school level I would guess I have used short kick mechanics less the 15 times over a 10 year period.  With that said, we are expected to be perfect the first game we officiate so there is no excuse, but that just isn't the reality.  I very much expect the guys on this crew to not miss the blocking in the future and if anything I expect many more crews who are aware of this game not to miss it either.

On a side note, I have only seen this type of blocking flagged twice (last year) in D-1 football, but I have seen several that were missed.  It happens at every level and it's just not being called.

[TXMike]

This requires year around working on mechanics/rules and physical condition.  There is no excuse for missing the illegal touching and blocking before the ball travels 10 years. 

Black and White...are you back?