Author Topic: Simultaneous Catch? (Read 18672 times)

SanDiegoStryker · « **on:** December 13, 2011, 01:11:00 PM »

Let's say that A88 and B24 both jump to catch a forward pass. B24 clearly catches the ball, while still in the air, and then A88 reaches in and gets his hands the ball, also while still in the air, and then they both come down in bounds. They both end up laying on the turf with their arms around the ball. Would this be an interception or a simultaneous catch that is awarded to A?

tow · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2011, 03:01:42 PM »

Catch completed when players return to ground,both in possession A's ball.

Curious · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2011, 03:26:53 PM »

Quote from: tow on December 13, 2011, 03:01:42 PM

Catch completed when players return to ground,both in possession A's ball.

"tow" is correct. Reference Case Book play 7.5.4 - especially the COMMENT. It does not matter if the players return to the ground simultaneously or at different times....as long as both are in joint possession AND in bounds.

SanDiegoStryker · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2011, 04:01:50 PM »

Good, I agree with that and that was the consensus on the field, but it led me to further thinking. If B24 gained possession of the ball while in the air and then A88, with his feet on the ground, reached in and got his arms around the ball before B24 contracted the ground, would that also be a simultaneous catch?

I don't think that case book comment covers that.

Tom.OH · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:20:03 PM »

B24 does not possess the ball in the air, only after he touches the ground in bounds.

Curious · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2011, 10:37:03 PM »

Quote from: SanDiegoStryker on December 13, 2011, 04:01:50 PM

Good, I agree with that and that was the consensus on the field, but it led me to further thinking. If B24 gained possession of the ball while in the air and then A88, with his feet on the ground, reached in and got his arms around the ball before B24 contracted the ground, would that also be a simultaneous catch?

I don't think that case book comment covers that.

It really does cover your scenario. As the COMMENT states, to be a simultaneous catch, both players must first "jointly possess the ball while airborne then return to the ground in bounds"; so when B24 caught the ball with his feet on the ground, then A88 reaches in while still in the air, we don't have a simultaneous catch. We simply have a completed catch (interception) by B24.

Quote from: Tom.OH on December 13, 2011, 05:20:03 PM

B24 does not possess the ball in the air, only after he touches the ground in bounds.

I understand where you're going Tom, but just to be precise, in the OP, A88 DOES actually "possess" the ball while he's airborne; but he does not simultaneously possess it with B24 while airborne. By definition, B24 completed the catch (by being on the ground) before A88 landed; so as you point out, we don't have a simultaneous catch.

mbyron · « **Reply #6 on:** December 14, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »

Quote from: Curious on December 13, 2011, 10:37:03 PM

I understand where you're going Tom, but just to be precise, in the OP, A88 DOES actually "possess" the ball while he's airborne; but he does not simultaneously possess it with B24 while airborne. By definition, B24 completed the catch (by being on the ground) before A88 landed; so as you point out, we don't have a simultaneous catch.

Not sure where you're getting the red part. In the OP, A88 gets the ball while they're both still airborne.

Quote from: SanDiegoStryker

B24 clearly catches the ball, while still in the air, and then A88 reaches in and gets his hands the ball, also while still in the air, and then they both come down in bounds.

That's a simultaneous catch, which by rule belongs to A.

I believe NCAA is different here, and awards the ball to whoever hits the ground first.

mbyron · « **Reply #7 on:** December 14, 2011, 09:06:43 AM »

Quote from: Tom.OH on December 13, 2011, 05:20:03 PM

B24 does not possess the ball in the air, only after he touches the ground in bounds.

Sure he can possess the ball in the air. It's just not a catch until he lands and maintains possession. He couldn't really "maintain" possession through the landing unless he had it first, right?

Curious · « **Reply #8 on:** December 14, 2011, 09:58:19 AM »

Quote from: mbyron on December 14, 2011, 09:06:43 AM

Sure he can possess the ball in the air. It's just not a catch until he lands and maintains possession. He couldn't really "maintain" possession through the landing unless he had it first, right?

Rhetorical, right MB?

mbyron · « **Reply #9 on:** December 14, 2011, 10:16:04 AM »

Quote from: Curious on December 14, 2011, 09:58:19 AM

Rhetorical, right MB?

Tu quoque.

SanDiegoStryker · « **Reply #10 on:** December 14, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »

Quote from: Curious on December 13, 2011, 10:37:03 PM

It really does cover your scenario. As the COMMENT states, to be a simultaneous catch, both players must first "jointly possess the ball while airborne then return to the ground in bounds"; so when B24 caught the ball with his feet on the ground, then A88 reaches in while still in the air, we don't have a simultaneous catch. We simply have a completed catch (interception) by B24.

That is not actually the scenario I described. It's the opposite. You are saying that if a player catches the ball with his feet on the ground, then someone else comes in, the first player is awarded the catch. That seems pretty common and obviously not a simultaneous catch.

What I was asking is if the B player in the air catches the ball first, and is apparently going to have an interception, then an A player with his feet on the ground reaches in and gets his hands around the ball, while the B player is still in the air, does that make it a simultaneous catch when B comes down in bounds? I think the answer is yes and therefore A gets possession and prevents an interception.

Curious · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2011, 01:58:11 PM »

Quote from: SanDiegoStryker on December 14, 2011, 10:56:44 AM

That is not actually the scenario I described. It's the opposite. You are saying that if a player catches the ball with his feet on the ground, then someone else comes in, the first player is awarded the catch. That seems pretty common and obviously not a simultaneous catch.

What I was asking is if the B player in the air catches the ball first, and is apparently going to have an interception, then an A player with his feet on the ground reaches in and gets his hands around the ball, while the B player is still in the air, does that make it a simultaneous catch when B comes down in bounds? I think the answer is yes and therefore A gets possession and prevents an interception.

What I'm saying (as is the Case Book) is that to have a simultaneous catch three things have to happen:

1. A and B must possess the ball while they are in the air
2. Both must remain in joint possession when they return to the ground
3. Both must be in bounds when they land

If any one of these things don't occur, we have no simultaneous catch.

In your scenario, B has NOT caught (intercepted) the ball until he returns to the ground in bounds - and A never possessed it while airborne; so the #1 criterion is missing. So, IMO, A has made a legal catch before B comes down. It doesn't matter if B possesses the ball in the air. A's ball wherever the ball becomes dead (since it is NOT a simultaneous catch, the play does not become dead immediately).

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:24:09 PM »

Quote from: mbyron on December 14, 2011, 09:06:43 AM

Sure he can possess the ball in the air. It's just not a catch until he lands and maintains possession. He couldn't really "maintain" possession through the landing unless he had it first, right?

Sorry gentlemen, but according to the NFHS definition of "Possession" an airborne player CANNOT possess a live ball.

NF: 2-34-1 advises, "A ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player after it has been handed or snapped to him, or after he has caught or recovered it."

NF: 2-4-1 defines a catch as, "a catch is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds or being contacted by an opponent in such a wat that he is prevented from returning to the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball.

Although an airborne player may satisfy a literal definition of possession, he is unable to satisfy the NFHS definition of securing possession until he contacts the ground, inbounds.

Curious · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:49:54 PM »

Quote from: AlUpstateNY on December 14, 2011, 02:24:09 PM

Sorry gentlemen, but according to the NFHS definition of "Possession" an airborne player CANNOT possess a live ball.

Although an airborne player may satisfy a literal definition of possession, he is unable to satisfy the NFHS definition of securing possession until he contacts the ground, inbounds.

As usual, Al, you're late to the party and fill up space with redundant noise. We KNOW all this. "Possession" is in quotes for a reason. Call it "has the ball in his hands while in the air" if it makes you feel better.

The questioned posed had to do with a simultaneous catch. Weigh in on that if you have anything meaningful to add.

SanDiegoStryker · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:55:51 PM »

Quote from: Curious on December 14, 2011, 01:58:11 PM

1. A and B must possess the ball while they are in the air
2. Both must remain in joint possession when they return to the ground
3. Both must be in bounds when they land

I like this, thank you. If they are both in the air a simultaneous catch can occur, where possession would be given to A. If one of the players is in contact with the ground, simultaneous catch doesn't even apply. You don't have to over think it. The player that was in contact with the ground is the one that made the catch.

And yes, we get it, you don't have possession until you contact the ground.

mbyron · « **Reply #15 on:** December 15, 2011, 08:20:27 AM »

Quote from: Curious on December 14, 2011, 01:58:11 PM

What I'm saying (as is the Case Book) is that to have a simultaneous catch three things have to happen:

1. A and B must possess the ball while they are in the air
2. Both must remain in joint possession when they return to the ground
3. Both must be in bounds when they land

If any one of these things don't occur, we have no simultaneous catch.

I like this too, except for the fact that you made it up and it's not the rule.

2-4-3: "A simultaneous catch or recovery is a catch or recovery in which
there is joint possession of a live ball by opposing players who are inbounds."

Players standing on the ground can make a simultaneous catch. None of your three conditions is correct.

If B is in the air and A is not, and A gets his hands on the ball before B returns to the ground, B has not caught the ball until he comes down. That would count as a simultaneous catch.

AlUpstateNY · « **Reply #16 on:** December 15, 2011, 09:25:08 AM »

Quote from: Curious on December 14, 2011, 02:49:54 PM

As usual, Al, you're late to the party and fill up space with redundant noise. We KNOW all this. "Possession" is in quotes for a reason. Call it "has the ball in his hands while in the air" if it makes you feel better.

The questioned posed had to do with a simultaneous catch. Weigh in on that if you have anything meaningful to add.

Why are you so argumentive, Curious, and may I suggest, a tad overly impressed with yourself. Several comments back, Mbyron suggested, "Sure he can possess the ball in the air", and I was responding to that observation, which I believe is incorrect and could cause some confusion and misunderstanding.

Are you suggesting I should run any comments by you before submitting them to assure they fit what you happen to think is important? Get a grip.

Curious · « **Reply #17 on:** December 15, 2011, 11:16:42 AM »

Quote from: mbyron on December 15, 2011, 08:20:27 AM

I like this too, except for the fact that you made it up and it's not the rule.

See...there you go MB - making me think...

2-4-3: "A simultaneous catch or recovery is a catch or recovery in which
there is joint possession of a live ball by opposing players who are inbounds."

I agree...

Players standing on the ground can make a simultaneous catch. None of your three conditions is correct.

You left off "IF"; otherwise I would argue my summary is correct as it relates to airborne players...

If B is in the air and A is not, and A gets his hands on the ball before B returns to the ground, B has not caught the ball until he comes down. That would count as a simultaneous catch.

I disagree here. A catch is the act of establishing possession of a live ball in flight - right so since A has his hands on the ball while on the ground he has already made THE catch. When B comes down with his hands on the ball it is no longer "in flight" - hence not catch let alone a simultaneous catch.

You're up!

mbyron · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2011, 01:31:28 PM »

1. When providing your "criteria" of a simultaneous catch, you did not restrict the scope to airborne opponents, thus leaving the impression that those conditions always have to be met for a simultaneous catch. That's misleading; I agree that what you say applies specifically to the case when both opponents are airborne, as in 7.5.4.

2. Consider the reverse play: A is airborne, possesses/grasps the pass, and while he's still in the air B, who is on the ground, grasps the ball as well. As A comes to the ground, they both go down holding the ball.

Are you really going to say, (a) this is not a simultaneous catch, despite the definition in 2-4-3 (which part of "joint possession" does this play not exhibit?), (b) that B caught the ball, because he was on the ground and A was not, and (c) that B should therefore be credited with an interception? That ruling seems patently wrong to me.

If you deny (c) and give the ball to A, then you're defending a distinction without a difference.

Curious · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »

Quote from: mbyron on December 15, 2011, 01:31:28 PM

1. When providing your "criteria" of a simultaneous catch, you did not restrict the scope to airborne opponents, thus leaving the impression that those conditions always have to be met for a simultaneous catch. That's misleading; I agree that what you say applies specifically to the case when both opponents are airborne, as in 7.5.4.

I wasn't trying to provide MY criteria; just that described in the referenced Case Book Play. Didn't mean to mislead anybody; but the OP had both players in the air with joint "possession".

2. Consider the reverse play: A is airborne, possesses/grasps the pass, and while he's still in the air B, who is on the ground, grasps the ball as well. As A comes to the ground, they both go down holding the ball.

Are you really going to say, (a) this is not a simultaneous catch, despite the definition in 2-4-3 (which part of "joint possession" does this play not exhibit?) Answer: Any catch requires a live ball to be in flight, (b) that B caught the ball, because he was on the ground and A was not, and (c) that B should therefore be credited with an interception? That ruling seems patently wrong to me.

If you deny (c) and give the ball to A, then you're defending a distinction without a difference.

Given the definition of a "catch" I would, in fact, say the reverse would be the same ruling. B would have completed the "catch" (interception); so when A returned to the ground "holding onto" the ball, it would no longer be "in flight" as required. Hence, no simultaneous catch. I think that's consistent.

ECILLJ · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2011, 03:05:27 PM »

Curious- Do you get in very much trouble on Friday nights?

Curious · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2011, 03:18:41 PM »

Quote from: ECILLJ on December 19, 2011, 03:05:27 PM

Curious- Do you get in very much trouble on Friday nights?

Rarely (over 35 years)....You?

Is there something you don't like about my answers/research/opinions? Do you think my answers to these particular questions are wrong?

Bob M. · « **Reply #22 on:** December 30, 2011, 07:04:20 PM »

REPLY: The problem is that the Federation (and the NCAA, for that matter) is very cavalier about using the word "possession." Tom.OH is correct that by rule (and definition) neither player can "possess" the ball while they're airborne. Al provided the definitions that substantiate that. True 'possession' is not gained until they come to the ground with the ball in their control. That's the word they should be using to describe any situation where an airborne player secures a loose ball. As long as they use possession to denote that, we'll be seeing these kinds of posts continue.