Author Topic: Refugio / Cisco  (Read 35357 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2011, 08:31:03 PM »
  Mike, this is different from the play you posted last week.  No one moved during this play.  No substitutes were used.  No talking to the sidelines.  Everyone just simply looked to the sideline.  So, I can not go with a UNS here.  Just a "quick snap" play.
10-4   I was not there so only saw what was on TV and assumed there must have been some communicating happening

TL551

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2011, 08:32:48 PM »
can neither confirm or deny that, I can tell you there was a flag.  Maybe TV missed it because they were talking about the "dead man" play.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2011, 08:34:19 PM »
Why can't you confirm or deny?  Are you in witness protection?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2011, 08:48:12 PM »
Last year's discussion on this type play in HS championship game:  http://www.refstripes.com/forum/index.php?topic=7593.0

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2011, 09:25:21 PM »
Just looked at video again.  There WAS communicating going on and the Team A coach was even on the field!

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2011, 10:25:56 PM »
There's a couple of things that need to be stated.

First, this EXACT crew (I know all these guys) worked a first round game 2 years ago where they flagged and enforced a hideout play, taking away a TD. I'm not sure, but I believe they told the coach not to run it but he did anyway, then threw a fit after they flagged it. I saw the game on tape and the play in question.

Second, they missed, per 2-27, an illegal formation (I'm not sure how many are really familiar with that rule) IF you consider that rule infraction a gained unfair advantage. While I will concede its debatable in this play, its still an open question as to whether Team A gained an advantage. This was basically a fly/go route with single coverage and the DB had his eyes on the receiver who's shoulders WERE parallel to the LOS. Yes, you can argue other defensive players could have helped out but the way the play was run, I don't think anyone else would have been much help. Illegal formation is a 5 yard penalty and subject to advantage/disadvantage (just like holding and BIB -- nothing specific in rules about "point of attack" yet we all enforce it that way).

Third, not everyone is aware of the bulletins. I wasn't aware of the one on this type of play until reading it on here -- in fact, I didn't even know it was a bulletin for a few posts. Yes, we all should be more aware of them and TASO should make them more known, but as of now, they aren't -- and if there's additional play applications such as this one (nothing specific about hideout plays except for equipment OR substitution, and this involves neither) we need to be informed if we are expected to enforce it.

Not trying to be a homer for these guys. Just bringing up some additional thoughts on here that should be considered.

texref32

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2011, 10:32:19 PM »
I can confirmed there was a flag on the play, and there was a discussion by the crew except for the backjudge.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2011, 10:49:53 PM »
Guys WTF?   If you are not willing to give the details then why put these little teasers out there?  They do not lend anything to the understanding of what happened and how to prevent it from happening again.  This is not a  matter of national security.  It is a freakin football game. Anyone who is assigned to work a state championship game surely has the intestinal strength and self confidence to permit a study of what happened.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2011, 10:51:08 PM »
What was the flag for?

texref32

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2011, 11:00:23 PM »
The flag was for ILF which was called by the LJ.  After the discussion it was determined that there was ILF and the flag was waved off.  I don't remember if the R made an announcement or not for the flag wave off......

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2011, 11:04:50 PM »
Well he sure could have and we at home never would have known.  The way Fox does these games makes it very difficult to follow things like that. They don't deem it important and just ignore it alot of the time.  They are too busy trying to get the UIL propaganda on, or interview with State Farm big wigs, or doing some "human interest" BS

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2011, 11:08:49 PM »
If there was an illegal formation, why was the flag waived off?

Headlinesman

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2011, 11:50:05 PM »
The flag was for ILF which was called by the LJ.  After the discussion it was determined that there was ILF and the flag was waved off.  I don't remember if the R made an announcement or not for the flag wave off......
If it was determined that "there was ILF," why the hell was it waived off? The R just decided he didn't want to enforce that particular rule today, or what?

Offline psv

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2011, 12:24:43 AM »
He probably meant to say "there was NOT ILF and the flag was waved off"...

What is the saying here, FIFY?


Offline TexDoc

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2011, 03:57:53 AM »
What bothers me the most about this not being flagged is that coaches are watching these games and now think that play is legal the way it was run.  Then next year they run the same play, it gets flagged and they don't understand why.  To me it was fairly basic, you cannot run a play with your linemen not having their shoulders close to parallel to the LOS.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2011, 06:08:04 AM »
Especially since now they have seen it 2 years in a row in championship games.  If "the best" officials in the state permit it, it must be legal.  So when we lesser officials flag it all hell is gonna break loose.

The video of this year's play:
http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 08:06:41 AM by TXMike »

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2011, 09:02:31 AM »
As stated in the other thread, I have three guys on the line. Illegal formation. Clear as day, under ANY rules system I've worked.

TL551

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2011, 09:26:19 AM »
Especially since now they have seen it 2 years in a row in championship games.  If "the best" officials in the state permit it, it must be legal.  So when we lesser officials flag it all hell is gonna break loose.

The video of this year's play:
http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4

Listen,  I don't think there is any question that that play was illegal and should be called every time.  I agree that it is a problem when we allow this to go for big gains or touchdowns and it is seen on tv, and now other coaches see it and decide maybe they will try it too.  All I can tell you is I threw a flag for illegal formation, explained why, and got overruled.  You are free to come to your own conclusions as to why it was picked up.  I don't know if there was an explination given, I was running back to get my flag and then get ready for the next play.

Now, you really need to stop with the comments like "the best".  We all know how people feel about the way people get games.  All I know is none of us had ever worked for either coach and that we got the game on a coaches request. 

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2011, 09:33:02 AM »
The reason I used those phrases in quotes is because that is what the fans and coaches will say.  Like I have said before, anyone who lurks here knows the reality re assignments and I am not trying to get into that issue at all nor infer that anyone in theses games has a misplaced conception of why they are there.    I was just trying (apparently not very well) to make the point that people outside our clan are going to use that description and decide what they saw was legal. 

TL551

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2011, 09:43:57 AM »
And I agree 100%.  Since the SEC hide out play a couple of years ago, we had one run it in a game. (Called back and given a 15 yard penalty) and couple of others tell us in a pregame they were going to run it and they were told that they probably would not like the outcome if they did.  This play looked much worse on tv than it did live (maybe they all do). 

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2011, 09:49:29 AM »
  This play looked much worse on tv than it did live (maybe they all do).
  Great point!!!  Something many of us (I plead guilty) forget at times.  We see things on TV and are flabbergasted at how blatant some things seem and perhaps it is because we are seeing things from multiple angles at the same time. 

texref32

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2011, 10:59:48 AM »
And I agree 100%.  Since the SEC hide out play a couple of years ago, we had one run it in a game. (Called back and given a 15 yard penalty) and couple of others tell us in a pregame they were going to run it and they were told that they probably would not like the outcome if they did.  This play looked much worse on tv than it did live (maybe they all do). 
Especially since now they have seen it 2 years in a row in championship games.  If "the best" officials in the state permit it, it must be legal.  So when we lesser officials flag it all hell is gonna break loose.

The video of this year's play:
http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4

Just to set the record straight it's kind of hard to see the same play 2 years in a row in a championship game when we didn't have a championship game last year!!

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »
This was not a championship game?

http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4

texref32

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2011, 11:34:07 AM »
Especially since now they have seen it 2 years in a row in championship games.  If "the best" officials in the state permit it, it must be legal.  So when we lesser officials flag it all hell is gonna break loose.

The video of this year's play:
http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4

This was not a championship game?

http://youtu.be/2FQwmb0MBs4

As I say again it hard to have this play 2 years in a row in a CHAMPIONSHIP game, when you don't work a CHAMPIONSHIP game 2 years in a row!!!

Offline TXMike

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Re: Refugio / Cisco
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2011, 11:39:33 AM »
I am not talking about a specific crew or official.  I am tallking about officials in general.  Coaches are going to assume whomever is working the games are the best in the state.