Late Arriving Sub Issue (video)

[TXMike]

In this video there is a sub who arrives late to the party ( well, actually he never gets to the party)   And the video does not really show what he is doing and when.  BUt let's assume he was running towards the formation when the ball was snapped, what do we have?  Do we flag or ignore (assuming we see it)?  And is the formation even legal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRFUFKbk_uw

[Grant - AR]

Was that the U signaling a TD at the end of the first angle?  Surely the L didn't get that far across the field that quickly.

[clearwall]

Illegal Sub, 5-yards replay try. Also missed a holding there...

[Atlanta Blue]

Can't see him in the frame, but I'm assuming he was running toward the LOS at the snap.  Illegal Motion, 5 yards.

[TxSkyBolt]

Was that the U signaling a TD at the end of the first angle?  Surely the L didn't get that far across the field that quickly.

Looked to be a player

[El Macman]

Assuming, as you requested, he was moving toward B's goal line, then

a) if somebody saw him entering the game, they should have so signaled and, since the snap was imminent, the U should have stepped up and prevented the snap. Easier said than done, but, an astute R (and U) would have recognized that A had only 10 players, and should have been checking for a possible late substitution, or even T/O request by the HC. If either saw the late sub, they should have attempted to prevent the snap; even after the ball managed to get snapped, they should have shut the play down and played a "do over,' giving B due process to 'match up.'

b) if the crew fails to follow proper procedure for the late sub, at least they should have recognized the illegal motion (moving forward at the snap) and/or the illegal formation (more than four in the backfield at the snap.

Someone suggested a holding was missed. No. Yes, the blocker had a handful of jersey, but he stayed in front of the defender, and continued to drive him in the same direction. There was no pull-down or twist. The defender did not demonstrate a significant attempt to get away from the blocker. Simply not big enough. 

[Diablo]

It doesn't appear to be likely, but, if the 11th player stepped onto the field of play after the snap, that's a foul.

[TXMike]

How about the BIG question....Do we flag or ignore?

[Hank]

I can't see the sub in a video BUT if it's as described, I think it deserves a flag.  The sub is moving toward LOS at snap (IM).  He's 5th in backfield (IF).  The coaches should have grabbed him and said, STOP, you're too late and run the play or called TO.

[mishatx]

I've generally flagged this as illegal motion in the past.

[NTXRef]

First of, yes, you flag it.  But it's not motion or ILF.   Based on this year's clarification we are supposed to shut this down and flag as False Start.  Any time a substitute enters the game and never gets set, it is supposed to be FS.

7-1-2-b-5 The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)

While the rule nor the AR explicitly addresses substitutes, the training received this year does.

[Hawkeye]

First of, yes, you flag it.  But it's not motion or ILF.   Based on this year's clarification we are supposed to shut this down and flag as False Start.  Any time a substitute enters the game and never gets set, it is supposed to be FS.

7-1-2-b-5 The offensive team never coming to a one-second stop prior to the snap after the ball is ready for play (A.R. 7-1-2-IV)

While the rule nor the AR explicitly addresses substitutes, the training received this year does.

I had this in a game this year, the 11th player was very late and never stopped, he did get close enough to the LOS to participate in the play (unlike the player in this clip).  My H flagged it and called the dead ball foul 7-1-2-b-5.

Both the U and I (the R) knew team A had 10, I wish I was "astute" enough to iron cross it, I doubt my U would have had time to shut it down as the snap occurred pretty soon after I saw the player out of the corner of my eye.  El Macman makes good points that I will add to my pre-game next year.

[TxSkyBolt]

Assuming, as you requested, he was moving toward B's goal line, then

a) if somebody saw him entering the game, they should have so signaled and, since the snap was imminent, the U should have stepped up and prevented the snap. Easier said than done, but, an astute R (and U) would have recognized that A had only 10 players, and should have been checking for a possible late substitution, or even T/O request by the HC. If either saw the late sub, they should have attempted to prevent the snap; even after the ball managed to get snapped, they should have shut the play down and played a "do over,' giving B due process to 'match up.'

b) if the crew fails to follow proper procedure for the late sub, at least they should have recognized the illegal motion (moving forward at the snap) and/or the illegal formation (more than four in the backfield at the snap.

Someone suggested a holding was missed. No. Yes, the blocker had a handful of jersey, but he stayed in front of the defender, and continued to drive him in the same direction. There was no pull-down or twist. The defender did not demonstrate a significant attempt to get away from the blocker. Simply not big enough.

Wouldn't this just reward A for not realizing they were about to run a play with only 10 men?  Seems we'd be bailing them out here.  Is the Iron Cross procedure for this kind of action?

best regards,

Brad

[Etref]

Real tough call on the 5 man crew. Sub appears to come in behind the R, U is looking at GCG, probably the only one to pick this up would be the B and you know how they are some times  .

I agree it should be a dead ball foul as he had to have been moving forward at the snap to come from the team area.

[TXMike]

The B was probably in the iron cross as he was the only one who had a clue.  The other 4 were in their own little worlds and , as usual, were ignoring him.  Maybe this will teach them!!

(Can you imagine the conversation we would be having if there had been a turnover right at the line of scrimmmage or behind and the defender was ruunning scot free for a score except he got tackled by the Team A player who was way the heck back there at the start of the play?  Team A might have got away with an illegal formation and an illegal snap while also being able to stop a score.   )

[Rulesman]

I agree it should be a dead ball foul as he had to have been moving forward at the snap to come from the team area.

Moving forward at the snap is not necessarily a dead ball foul. Simulating action at the snap is. I will concede most who simulate action are probably moving forward, but disagree that moving forward is an automatic shut down.