Abrupt Defensive Action ? (video)

[TXMike]

When I first saw this, my gut said "false start". But after I looked at it a few times it struck me that the defender's movement was not really a normal movement and was done very abruptly.  His immediate reaction to the Team A player's reaction also made it seem to me he had achieved what he was trying to do.

http://youtu.be/yAeE_B9EnlA

[mccormicw]

I agree with Mike.  It appears that B "orchestrated" a false start.  As I was thinking about this situation, I was wondering how much intent has to do with penalizing abrupt defensive actions.  If B anticipates the snap count and starts early but has not entered the neutral zone, and then A reacts prior to the snap, we would still have a false start wouldn't we?  My question is, do we have to judge intent to penalize "abrupt defensive actions"?

[Kalle]

My question is, do we have to judge intent to penalize "abrupt defensive actions"?

No. If it's abrupt but a normal defensive move before the snap (including missing a snap count and moving forward but not entering the NZ), then it would be legal. If it's abrupt and not normal, flag. Not abrupt (or quick), legal.

[MJT]

No. If it's abrupt but a normal defensive move before the snap (including missing a snap count and moving forward but not entering the NZ), then it would be legal. If it's abrupt and not normal, flag. Not abrupt (or quick), legal.

So in the one Kalle, do you think he missed the snap count and went down with his left hand, or do you feel he was trying to lure the offense into movement?

[Atlanta Blue]

So in the one Kalle, do you think he missed the snap count and went down with his left hand, or do you feel he was trying to lure the offense into movement?

Why would you DROP your hand on a snap count?  You would naturaly RAISE your hand as you start forward.

[TXMike]

I  don't think a def lineman's normal 1st move is to go down with the other hand

[mccormicw]

I  don't think a def lineman's normal 1st move is to go down with the other hand

I agree.  Wouldn't a smart defensive player (or well coached player) ACT like he "missed a snap count and move forward but not enter the NZ" vs putting his left hand down quickly?  If a player is "acting" don't we have to judge intent?

[TXMike]

The specific wording of the rule does not seem to require intent.  But the AR associated with this DOES talk about intent.  You might be better off staying away from the "intent" part as that one could be hard to argue to a coach.  It was an abrupt act and not "normal" movement.

[fencewire]

what if he leaned forward and put his off hand down to catch himself to keep from falling into the NZ...  pretty fine line there we are talking about. 

where does the adjacent part come in?  the guy that moved was the OT, the defender in question was lined up on the shoulder of the center.

[El Macman]

... (or well coached player)...

Irresponsibly coached. Way too many of those around.

[TXMike]

what if he leaned forward and put his off hand down to catch himself to keep from falling into the NZ...  pretty fine line there we are talking about. 

where does the adjacent part come in?  the guy that moved was the OT, the defender in question was lined up on the shoulder of the center.

I can tell if a guy is leaning/falling forward and puts a hand down to stop himself.  you ae not suggesting that is what this player did are you?

[mccormicw]

Irresponsively coached. Way too many of those around.

   I stand corrected.

[MJT]

what if he leaned forward and put his off hand down to catch himself to keep from falling into the NZ...  pretty fine line there we are talking about. 

That is what I was kind of getting at, but I don't think he was doing that either. I agree on it being on the defense.

[Kalle]

So in the one Kalle, do you think he missed the snap count and went down with his left hand, or do you feel he was trying to lure the offense into movement?

Like others have said, if he moved forward and down and put his hand down to stop that movement, false start. He didn't move forward, just put his hand down, not a normal defensive move, offside.

[James]

I'm not so sure that it is not a false start.
My problem is that the D lineman is in the gap between the Center and Guard. The O lineman who jumps is the Tackle - he is not threatened by the D lineman.

[Kalle]

I'm not so sure that it is not a false start.
My problem is that the D lineman is in the gap between the Center and Guard. The O lineman who jumps is the Tackle - he is not threatened by the D lineman.

Being threatened is not an issue in this case. Rule 7-1-5-a-3 does not list rule 7-1-2-b-3-ex, and in any case the team B player does not enter the neutral zone, which is the requirement for the 7-1-2-b-3-ex.

7-1-5-a-3 is a foul even if no team A player reacts and thus any action by team A players (apart from PFs and USCs, obviously) after the foul is irrelevant as the ball is dead and not ready for play.